Bailey, Melody, Strife and August discuss "Truth Be Told" - 2 years ago!
Author august
Member posted February 13, 2001 01:29 AM

Topic: Random Thoughts on "Truth Be Told" (Attn: Joel and Chris Graves if you're lurking!)

Well I thoroughly enjoyed it.

As several people have noticed in the past, they are amazingly adept at planting the seeds for plots and plot devices long before they ever use them. Much in the style of comic books, where Superman will suddenly remember that the key to defeating the villain is in the bottle city of Kandor, from 3 years before.

The rift between Voic and Hel? Early early on. Creegan's connection to Hel's family was from the second episode. Along with the Betrayer ID chip from "Double," Hel's dad's apparition from "Perceptions," the holo-pic from "Mauser's Day Out," and the trans-psionic plane weapon thing from "Out of Body." That's a LOT of inter-connectedness!

Anyone notice who wrote part 2? Melissa Blake, once Rob Tapert's secretary, whom we saw portrayed by Lisa Chappell in the HTLJ episodes "Yes Virginia" and "For Those of You..."

Things I liked:

the Mr. Data-ish explanation of why Hel and Creegan could walk through walls, but their feet enabled them to walk on top of the floors - Creegan spouts off techno-gibberish about an interface with the decompostion of matter.... I expected him next to blame a distortion in the space time continuum that led to a temporal anomaly, causing tachyon emissions in the forward sensor array.

- Hel's wisecrack about "the hair and the make-up" and Joel's response "rrrrrraaaiiirrrr!" Wonder if that was an ad-lib?

- Mauser's wonderfully deadpan advice to Cleo to "act naturally - like me." Who would have thought Sorbo's stunt double would be such a good actor?

- Cleo's repeated Death Star references.

- her initial imitation of a Betrayer. "Crush, kill, destroy." OK - who caught that? It was a "Lost in Space" reference. Will, Dr. Smith et al. encountered a killer robot called IDAK - Instant Destroyer And Killer. All it would say was "Crush, kill, destroy."

- the Dr. Octopus-like link-up of the Betrayer to Bailey Central.

- Creegan's classic line "I must go through, like, 50 mutants a week..."

- Cleo's imitation of a Betrayer. The old military command "present arms" takes on a new meaning! Her whole malfuntion thing was hilarious, but when the chips were down, boy did she back Creegan down! You go girl! (Even if he did get a nice grab of her @ss at the end.)

- the *other* blatant Star Wars reference: "Aren't you a little short for a Betrayer?"

- the funny but accurate observation that there weren't too many spare weapons in Betrayer central, since everone could make their own!

- the new info on what the Bailies are. Organic (I guess if we think of humans as having carbon and iron and zinc in our bodies, it's more believable) creatures who absorb human neural tissue; "in a sense, they are us." Now *there's* a topic for discussion!

- Cleo's own unique way of protecting her friends with her force field: "Group Hug!"

- The final shot. Did anyone notice the composition? It was *very* planned out. A triangle, with Hel at lower right, Sarge above her at left, Cleo above both in the center. Like a Botticelli painting, it was so structured. Then Hel moves away, just as she says she can't trust Voice. Cleo wonders where that leaves the team. Mauser moves in, in between Cleo and Sarge, creating a second triangle, with him at the center and highest point. It doesn't get any more symbolic than that!

Hey Joel - I bet you're lurking out there. Good job, man! And kudos on the cameo in "Xena this week too! And a big congrats and thanks to director Chris Graves. (OK, OK, to the writers and cast too, but that goes without saying!)

Member posted February 15, 2001 04:31 PM
You gotta see the first LOST IN SPACE epsiode. After Dr. Smith reprogrammed him, one of the first things the Jupiter II robot said was, CRUSH! KILL! DESTROY!"
Mind you, I remember the IDAK robot (I don't think I'll able to forget him).

Member posted February 15, 2001 10:09 PM
oh the pain, the pain. William, save me!!!

Bailey 1729
Member posted February 15, 2001 11:26 PM

Yeah, this episode really tied a bunch of stuff together! As mentioned by august above, references to events in Creegan (the 2nd ep), Double, Perceptions, Mauser's Day Out, Out of Body, and also (not mentioned above) Hel and Highwater 2 (at the end of that ep they were wondering why the captured Bailey helped them save the underground). Also ties to the other Raina eps since we find out Creegan and Raina knew each (and may have even worked with each other).

LMRS, found it interesting you said "A lot of questions were answered. Too many questions, in fact. I got the feeling that they were trying to tie the whole flipping show together". You think when they wrote this they had in mind wrapping up a few of the mysteries, possibly moving towards wrapping up EVERYTHING in a final episode or two? (or did you mean something else?) Hmmm, I don't know ... still a lot of mysteries, for example is Hel's dad (Carter) really dead, what does "in a sense they are us" mean, what will happen to the team now, were the Baileys created by humans and why, how and why did everybody get driven underground, anything special about Cleo, what happened with Lily and her promised combat training, what about those memories Hel gained in Brain Drain, and many more ...

this ep seemed to be sort of a turning point (to me), rather than a movement towards a conclusion, since at the end the future of the team is in doubt.

Interesting how a character changes in your mind once you get some history. So for example after Mauser's Day Out I didn't think of Mauser as basically a robot anymore; it humanized him. Now we got Creegan's version of his story. Turns out he's not a psychotic murderous power-hungry megalomaniac after all! No, he was a brilliant young scientist (approximate quote: "I spent years working on that problem, Hel. I solved it by retuning the residual gravimetric particles to interact with the decoherent matter at your feet"), who was wrongfully dismissed from his job by Voice and Carter! Probably they were envious of his brilliance! (Or, as I joked on another thread, possibly the lab he was working in had a dress code, which he ignored). And now, quite rightly, he wants some revenge (and also I guess to be the ruler of the underground, but hey, he's brilliant, he deserves it!).

I like the gravimetric particles business (another tie-in: they also used the term gravimetric - I think - in Juggernaut Down), instead of simply calling it a gravity field or talking about gravitons or something. This is either very subtle or very silly, since gravimetric just means "gravity measuring" (it might possibly be subtle since one way of thinking about the basis of quantum mechanics has to do with unavoidable interactions between measuring devices and systems being measured).

So, referring to Carter's line "in a sense, they are us", august said "Now *there's* a topic for discussion!" OK ... let's discuss it! Any theories on what this really means? For example: maybe Baileys were genetically engineered by humans, using human DNA as a base, to ... OK let's use the old environment theory, why not? ... to save and protect the environment. So they "are us" because genetically they're based on human DNA (with this theory). But why in the world would they need human neural tissue? That's not very good engineering! Another mystery to add to the list!

Member posted February 15, 2001 11:33 PM
Maybe they need human neural tissue now because whatever technology originally was in the Baileys was destroyed and the only way the Baileys could keep their "smarts" was to turn to humans again Hey, it is 2525 and we still don't know when the Baileys were created

Member posted February 15, 2001 11:52 PM

Hey good call on the Creegan-Raina connection - he even had some cute line about her, but I forget what it was. Anyone remember?
I too like the humanization of Creegan (and Edward Mauser!) I now sort of picture him as one of those disgruntled office workers who begin to dress and act oddly before going postal.

Hey refresh my memory - why did the Bailey want to save the Underground? Do you mean because Bailey Central is there?

As for the whole human neural tissue thing, I'm still unsure. My biology class days are far behind me. What does that imply, exactly? Clearly something from humans is needed to make the artificial intelligence sentient. Is all they are implying a sort of Borg-like collective mind, with remnnants of human memories and/or instincts in there somewhere?

See, the whole organic vs. machine thing bothers me. The exterior of the Bailies is totally metallic and machine-like. So much so that the blaster that was severed in "Quest for Firepower" was compatible with the Underground's technology. Of course, the whole morphing technology that the (presumably) simpler Betrayers have might explain that. But on the inside, they appear to be like the inside of a person. Gooey and sticky. What's up with that?

And while we're on the topic. OK, in "Double" Mauser says that the Betrayers are exact copies of humans, right down to the molecular level. OK, so where is all that silver stuff we see? And the wiring gizmos that we saw protruding from the Betrayer head in "Baby Boom?"

Member posted February 15, 2001 11:59 PM

Um..august--this is supposed to be sci-fi. Some things just are and aren't meant to be explained...or is that for Xena?

And maybe, just maybe--and this is my scientific biology self kicking in momentarily--when Mauser said that Betrayers were identical to humans down to the last molecule, he was right, they just figured out how to make the mechanical stuff read as DNA on any scan. Either way..I wouldn't go looking for a full and complete explanation. By the time TPTB get around to(or could get around to) explaining things, there would be inconsistencies the size of_____(you fill in the blank )

Bailey 1729
Member posted February 16, 2001 08:25 PM

august, I thought the implication of the discussion Hel and her dad were having (when he said Baileys use human neural tissue; in a sense they are us; etc.) was that they didn't want to destroy humanity because they need humanity as a supply of neural tissue -- didn't Hel say something in this scene like oh so that's why they don't want to destroy us?

Can't remember Creegan's line about Raina.

I think maybe there have been different models of betrayers (oh and btw I realize that it may be silly to put more thought into these topics than the writers etc. possibly - probably - did; I just think it's fun). So Mauser is probably an early model; Cleo's double the latest (in fact Hel said something to this effect in Double, about Mauser being more primitive or something). The "identical at the molecular level" is ridiculous, if interpreted literally, since for example a single individual is different at the molecular level from one instant to the next due to continuous metabolic processes (you know, at the molecular level, every cell in your body is in a continuous state of change). I figure what this really meant was that Mauser determined that in some random sample of cells (bone, muscle, nerve, blood, etc.), scanned from Cleo and her double, the cells were the same at the molecular level for the molecules that are semi-permanent in cells (like DNA), within some error tolerance (but with only 1/2 hour he couldn't have said all that, the show would have been over by the time he finished explaining!) -- this interpretation leaves room for undetected nanotech in Cleo's double (just need a few large molecule sized nanomachines after all -- they can do morphing like stuff by changing existing material into whatever at a geometrically increasing rate, see?).

Yes, nanotech! Nanotech can explain everything -- it's magic! All the morphing abilities of Baileys and Betrayers and so on. So we throw in some different models of Betrayers (maybe the new ones don't turn all silver? Cleo's double didn't), some nanotech, etc., and we can "explain" it all! Including organic Baileys that may seem to be machine like.

But it doesn't explain why they need human neural tissue. Melody, I like your theory.

Or maybe they can create new Baileys without human neural tissue, but they're just clones; to get new smarter Baileys they need ... HUMAN BRAINS! now there's a time-honored SF concept ...

Member posted February 18, 2001 08:49 PM

Creegan's line was something about having to look her (Raina) up sometime!
August  - Jack's Pack Fan # 1, Keeper of the List, 3-Time Speaker of the JoAT Fan Quote of the Week, and the only person ever to have Back 2 Back Jack and Cleo fan quotes !
Awesome idea reposting these comments August!!!

I can't wait to get home to read the comments closely!
:alien: Sci-Fi needs reality TV as much as it needs a Hammer! :mad:
One thing I always wanted to know (which I posted before). Creegan shoots Hel's father with the transplane generator so he enters the "normal" plane. Hel gets the gun, and shoots herself. Then they get captured.
Why on (under the) Earth didn't Hel just shoot her father again, and transport him back to the psionic plane? :confused:

I think "Truth be Told" is my favourite episode. It's funny and dramatic and sad.
Darkamber, I can't remember the details of this episode anymore, so I'm relying on Sally Dye's episode synopsis from to refresh my memory of this scene. Quoting from that source:
Quote:Hels' dad is obviously on the psionic plane, too, because he walks through things. He says he wishes she hadn't found him. He is shocked to see Hel with Creegan and asks what she has done. He tells her to leave while she still can. Hel: "Not without some answers." Creegan grabs the transplane generator and shoots Hel's father. Carter becomes visible to the betrayers and they attack him. Hel's gauntlets have no effect because she's still invisible. Hel gets the transplane generator and shoots Creegan and then herself. Then she fights the betrayers. At Creegan's order, the betrayers grab Hel and Carter.
Based on this, your question is a very good one! I can't think of a good answer ... did Hel have a clear shot at her Dad? Did she just lose it, really want to fight (which she couldn't do on the psionic plane), and not think clearly? I don't know! I agree that after she gets the transplane generator back (and at that point she's still in the psionic plane), using it just on her Dad seems like it would have been a much better strategy (assuming she had a clear shot, not blocked by betrayers possibly surrounding Carter ... need to see this scene again).
Note to Bailey - we stumbled across Darkamber in a Cleo roleplaying game, where Sally plays Cleo! (I cameo every now and then as Mauser - if I ever getthe time, I want to introduce another one of those voice team guys, ala Quint, Porter, etc.)
August  - Jack's Pack Fan # 1, Keeper of the List, 3-Time Speaker of the JoAT Fan Quote of the Week, and the only person ever to have Back 2 Back Jack and Cleo fan quotes !
Quote:Originally posted by Bailey 1729
Based on this, your question is a very good one! I can't think of a good answer ... did Hel have a clear shot at her Dad?

I've just re-seen the scene:

Creegan shoots Carter, who is grabbed by betrayers. Hel gets the gun from Creegan, shoots Creegan, then herself, then fires at the betrayers, freeing Carter.

At this point she could have shot her father with the transplane generator again, and he would have been safe.
There seems to be no logical reason why she didn't.
Bumping this up in case Antha has any comments.....
August  - Jack's Pack Fan # 1, Keeper of the List, 3-Time Speaker of the JoAT Fan Quote of the Week, and the only person ever to have Back 2 Back Jack and Cleo fan quotes !
Quote:Originally posted by Darkamber
I've just re-seen the scene:

Creegan shoots Carter, who is grabbed by betrayers. Hel gets the gun from Creegan, shoots Creegan, then herself, then fires at the betrayers, freeing Carter.

At this point she could have shot her father with the transplane generator again, and he would have been safe.
There seems to be no logical reason why she didn't.

OK, have watched it again ... Hel using the transplane generator on Carter might have been a good idea, however (1) he was held on either side by betrayers, they might have been sent into the psionic plane also? - don't know what the implications of that would have been; (2) before getting the transplane generator from Creegan, Hel tries to use her gauntlets to free Carter, Creegan makes a nasty comment, something like "It's no use, Helen, we're in the psionic plane, remember? But at least we're here in spirit ...", THEN Hel gets really mad, gets the generator, shoots Creegan then herself, and then tries to use her gauntlets to free her father. I don't think she considered the first point, don't think she was thinking clearly or logically, basically she was frustrated at her gauntlets not working (in the psionic plane), so reacting by reflex she sends Creegan and herself back to the normal plane and THEN uses her gauntlets which was what she was trying to do moments before. Best explanation I can come up with.
Yough Bailey, another thing about psionic plane as super weapon...the Betrayers were able to put up a damper or something to prevent Carter as prisoner from phazing back into the psion plane--phazing out on Hel, even if he wanted to. :bg:

I wonder if Mauser's invisiblilty shields that Hel and Sarge used in the Betrayer factory in RESCUE was related to the psion plane. mmmmm

Interesting:: Creegan was surprised at Hel's recording of Carter proving he was still alive, and so Creegan, like Hel for a long time, must have always thought that Carter was dead. Maybe Creegan's intimate involvement with Carter and the psion plane research was the reason Voice was afraid to let Hel know Carter was still alive--it was so important that Creegan never find out Carter was alive. But of course he did eventually find out--through Hel voluntarily showing him, most ironically. :tongue:

If Creegan knew Carter was alive, then Creegan would know that Voice was still relying on the psion plane to work against the Baileys as this was Carter's area of most research interest. Possibly, as Creegan thought Carter was dead, he never thought to warn the Baileys about this psion plane. did the Betrayers come up with a psion damping field so fast after they captured Hel and Carter...possibly with Creegan's immediate help?
Okay SCREAM. Joy and Enlightenment [NO LONGER] await you Sunday mornings 5AM USA StarGate Channel
Lexx_Luthor, yeah somehow they set up a damping field for the area they were being held in ... OK Carter had an explanation (of sorts) of why he didn't escape earlier by going back into the psionic plane immediately - something about being too surprised at seeing Hel, and it takes very strong concentration - but they sure got a damping field set up for the detention area in a hurry. I think you're right, the only possible explanation is that Creegan told them how to do it. He had already commented on what a nice set up they had there - or maybe that was later - anyways apparently they had lots of high tech lab equipment around etc. so Creegan telling them how to throw together a psionic damping field is a halfway reasonable explanation. I doubt if Creegan would ever give the Baileys any info (including psionic technology info) unless he was guaranteed something really big in return. His main motivation (at this point) seems to be revenge on Voice, and (possibly) to rule the underground. What was the interchange about access to the surface (for Creegan)? They said they had already given him that, he said something like (can't remember exact words) that's not important anymore, now he wants an army of 100 betrayers. This was the scene where he says he goes though something like 50 mutants a week. Did you notice how he cringed at the sunlight? Why did he ever bargain for access to the surface in the first place I wonder?

I don't think the timing's right for the "invisibility" shields in Rescue being psionic plane based, also they couldn't walk through walls etc. - hey with my terrible memory I've forgotten already, did those things just allow them to avoid security sensor detection, or did they actually make them invisible? I suppose Voice could have given Mauser (unknown to the rest of the team) psionic plane tech info as early as Rescue, but it just seems really unlikely, too risky to give Mauser info about (at that point) super secret stuff.

I realized (or possibly re-realized) that there is a fairly strong hint that Carter survived the stabbing. He earlier said that there's something about being in the psionic plane that slows down the aging process. One might reasonably conclude that being in the psionic plane also significantly slows down the dying from a stab wound process, which would give him time to walk through floors and walls, find a healing tube, phase back, and use it to recover.
Interesting story about IDAK - he was played by Don Matheson, from Dearborn, MI, who later got into behind the scenes stuff. At one point Bruce Campbell met him in negotiations for some film (Dearborn is sort of a suburb of the Ren Pics' guys' native Detroit) and recognized him as the killer robot!
August  - Jack's Pack Fan # 1, Keeper of the List, 3-Time Speaker of the JoAT Fan Quote of the Week, and the only person ever to have Back 2 Back Jack and Cleo fan quotes !
Yes, the Baileys ensured Creegan free run and safety on the surface, if I recall.

Well, I was thinking the invisibility shields could be a dumbed down version for test with the Voice teams, but yeah I would guess they only offer invisibility but won't make you feel any less solid. Anyway, they probably didn't work out to well except that one time (they got lucky).
Okay SCREAM. Joy and Enlightenment [NO LONGER] await you Sunday mornings 5AM USA StarGate Channel

MYCode Guide

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