Why didn't the Valar return to Middle-Earth?
#1
After destroying Utumno why didn’t the Valar return to Middle-Earth? I get they had Valinor but Melkor was defeated. Now was their chance to finish or enjoy all of the things they’d made. Why not tutor the Elves there?
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#2
Because they knew that Men would be coming along, too.

They were trying to be observers more than mentors. They didn't want to interfere with the fates of the Children. Even the decision to invite the Elves to come live in Aman was controversial. Not everyone agreed with it.

So while the Valar never stopped being interested in the Mortal Lands, they withdrew in order to get out of the way and let Iluvatar's vision unfold.
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#3
By then, they'd already made their abode in Valinor. The Two Trees, in particular, would motivate them to stay put there. I imagine Mandos ( the facility) would have been a bit awkward to relocate as well.

By the time the Eldar had made their home there, the Valar might have come to understand the matters Michael mentioned.
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#4
(September 19th, 2021, 07:09 PM)Michael Wrote: Because they knew that Men would be coming along, too.

Were they afraid their presence would cause them to age faster (as living in Valinor does)?  Otherwise I'm unsure how this would hurt Men.

Quote:They were trying to be observers more than mentors.

But...they did teach them.  Were they just supposed to set up the world and then act like the Watchers from Marvel?  Ew.  Can you imagine never being able to interact?  Seems...mean.  What would they have done if Melkor hadn't driven them to Valinor?  I guess they were on an island before that.

Quote:They didn't want to interfere with the fates of the Children. Even the decision to invite the Elves to come live in Aman was controversial. Not everyone agreed with it.

...oh yeah.  I'd forgotten about that.  I kinda agree with those that thought it was a bad idea.

(September 20th, 2021, 01:05 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: By then, they'd already made their abode in Valinor. The Two Trees, in particular, would motivate them to stay put there. I imagine Mandos (the facility) would have been a bit awkward to relocate as well.

They can travel pretty fast, they could have still lived in Valinor and traveled back to Middle-Earth to hang out and stuff.
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#5
I'm not sure if the Valar taught many different men or just the Edain. I'll have to remember to look that up. I think Tolkien discussed the relationship of the Valar with Men in some essays published in Morgoth's Ring. There might be something in The Peoples of Middle-earth.

Of course, Orome (or Araw, or Bema) appears to have interacted with Men - or at least was active in Middle-earth after they awoke. He was known to them because of his hunting and his great horn.
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#6
(September 21st, 2021, 10:02 PM)Michael Wrote: I'm not sure if the Valar taught many different men or just the Edain. I'll have to remember to look that up. I think Tolkien discussed the relationship of the Valar with Men in some essays published in Morgoth's Ring. There might be something in The Peoples of Middle-earth.

Of course, Orome (or Araw, or Bema) appears to have interacted with Men - or at least was active in Middle-earth after they awoke. He was known to them because of his hunting and his great horn.

So leaving Middle-Earth on their behalf may not have even been necessary.  Their (temporary) presence wasn't harmful.
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#7
(September 19th, 2021, 07:09 PM)Michael Wrote: Even the decision to invite the Elves to come live in Aman was controversial. Not everyone agreed with it.


This actually gets discussed a little bit more in The Nature of Middle-Earth, though more from the Elves' perspective.

(September 20th, 2021, 01:05 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: By then, they'd already made their abode in Valinor. The Two Trees, in particular, would motivate them to stay put there. I imagine Mandos ( the facility) would have been a bit awkward to relocate as well.

By the time the Eldar had made their home there, the Valar might have come to understand the matters Michael mentioned.

Tolkien kinda talks about this in The Nature of Middle-Earth *spoilers*
To view, use your mouse to select the text:
In one of the versions Elwë, when an ambassador, actually isn't inclined to move to Valinor because it's too bright, he can't see the stars, and it's too cramped compared to Middle-Earth.  But because his buddy, Finwë, wants to travel there he'll forebear.  Finwë was excited for all of the knowledge and skill they could gain (most especially his betrothed, Miriel).
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#8
They didn’t want help men.
Don't insult the precious, my precious!:book:
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#9
I don't think that's accurate, badlands. The Valar couldn't help men the same way they could help the elves. And Tolkien argues that the Valar's intervention on behalf of the elves wasn't perfect.

By the time men needed help, the Valar had had time to re-think their approach. And they also understood that they weren't supposed to play a direct role in the drama.
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#10
It seems that the Valar did directly intervene and help the Numenoreans. It is mentioned that the Numenoreans did receive training and help from the Valar. How else did they receive longer life?
But it also seems clear (to me), that the Valar made a mistake in regards to their actions towards the Numenorean men.
In particular, The Valar are responsible for creating the situation which ultimately leads to the corruption by Sauron and subsequent assault on Valinor.
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#11
The Valar arguably did help Numenorean Men achieve the highest civilization under the tutelage of the Valar via mainly the Eldar of Aman (and perhaps occasional Maiar visiting, whether as such, or in the guise of Elven visitors or other avatars) in the early days.

I think this may have been within the intent of Eru insomuch as the Men were "enriched" ever afterwards by their relationships and interactions with Aman. You could say it was part of their early "nurturing". The Valar esp. after the rebellion of Feanor realized that continuous contact and frequent theophanies, absent compelling cause, never mind overt attempts to rule and micromanage, were not good for the development of Men to their potential as designed by Eru.

However, IMO it would seem that it was inevitable the dangers would manifest and the time for direct continuous contact with the Blessed Realm would come to an end. The Downfall and the imposition of the "Straight Road" and one-way 'event horizon' was a development perhaps necessary so that Men could continue to progress as Eru ordained. Only the culture they acquired and increasingly dim legend-memory of a land in the West where a high civilization of Men dwelt, in contact with fair folk and gods, remained to them down to historical times.
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For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#12
(October 9th, 2021, 06:32 AM)gzhindra Wrote: It seems that the Valar did directly intervene and help the Numenoreans. It is mentioned that the Numenoreans did receive training and help from the Valar. How else did they receive longer life?

I believe that was a blessing from Eru.  I'm pretty sure the Ainur can't give or take years from the Children (save via killing them).

Quote:But it also seems clear (to me), that the Valar made a mistake in regards to their actions towards the Numenorean men.
In particular, The Valar are responsible for creating the situation which ultimately leads to the corruption by Sauron and subsequent assault on Valinor.

How do you figure?
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#13
(October 18th, 2021, 01:09 PM)ZehnWaters Wrote:
(October 9th, 2021, 06:32 AM)gzhindra Wrote: It seems that the Valar did directly intervene and help the Numenoreans. It is mentioned that the Numenoreans did receive training and help from the Valar. How else did they receive longer life?

I believe that was a blessing from Eru.  I'm pretty sure the Ainur can't give or take years from the Children (save via killing them).

Quote:But it also seems clear (to me), that the Valar made a mistake in regards to their actions towards the Numenorean men.
In particular, The Valar are responsible for creating the situation which ultimately leads to the corruption by Sauron and subsequent assault on Valinor.

How do you figure?


The Valar could not change the nature of humans (mortality) but i do think they could give them longer life.
I do not see why Eru would change a small group of humans with longer life.
Death is ERU's gift to humans, which even the Valar will envy as time wears.
I think the Valars help to the Numenoreans, is entirely misdirected.
It seems that the Valar feel guilty for their late action against Melkor.
The fact that they gave a new island close to Valinor and give them longer life, as well as all the other gifts,
directly leads to later problems. 
Even before Sauron came along, the Numenoreans managed to become evil, except for the small faithful group.

Why didn't the Valar help the people living in Middle Earth, as well as hunting down Sauron instead?
Obviously for story reasons this is never an option, but i think the question remains.
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#14
(October 19th, 2021, 01:32 PM)gzhindra Wrote: The Valar could not change the nature of humans (mortality) but i do think they could give them longer life.
I do not see why Eru would change a small group of humans with longer life.

Ostensibly because of their fight against Melkor.  He'd shortened their lives after their abjuration.

Quote:I think the Valars help to the Numenoreans, is entirely misdirected.
It seems that the Valar feel guilty for their late action against Melkor.

Entirely valid.

Quote:The fact that they gave a new island close to Valinor and give them longer life, as well as all the other gifts,
directly leads to later problems. 
Why didn't the Valar help the people living in Middle Earth, as well as hunting down Sauron instead?
Obviously for story reasons this is never an option, but i think the question remains.

That's....also entirely valid.
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