Here Abide Monsters - Discussion
#1
https://www.tor.com/2021/02/01/when-genr...-monsters/
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#2
Looks like Judith Tarr has attracted a following of Norton bashers. That is, unfortunately, the polarizing effect of the Internet. Even a place like SF Fandom tends to gravitate in one direction (hopefully positive and uplifting).

I think Andre's gift was in her ability to draw the reader into her stories despite any apparent flaws one might technically call out. People kept buying her books. That speaks volumes about an author's talent.
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#3
Bashers??? Oh I hope not. I kind of like HERE ABIDE MONSTERS

I still haven't finished BREED TO COME I'm not much for talking animals. I can't quite see these cats as people.
Irene
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#4
Michael said;
Quote:Looks like Judith Tarr has attracted a following of Norton bashers.

I mean this in a friendly way but I am really laughing at that statement. I have been trying to tell you all that for 2 years now. (Judith has been reviewing Andre's work since February 2017.) I pointed out how most of Judith's reviews were actually bashing the books and at times even Andre herself. The commenter's there are just evil when it comes to views they don't agree with. No matter - I'm still showcasing her reviews on the website, that makes for a better site. 

I found it funny was when I got banned from TOR.com completely for trying to point out that others had a different view. It only took two comments, the first was about opposing views and how Andre would not have liked the banning of them and it was deleted. Then I opened a comment with "I'm sorry but you are factually incorrect" and I gave them the correct info. The next day I could no longer comment on anything at TOR.com - no notice, no reasoning. Amazingly "I'm sorry but you are factually incorrect" has become way to harsh for some people and their precious little minds.

Now I often see one poster (they're here also) who tries to point out their misinterpretations but with comments that are so politically correct I don't think the point gets through. I guess it's to bad that I actually hate political correctness, maybe then I could argue my points. But Politically Correct Conversations have never solved a single thing in the history of mankind. Why, because when you frame your statement so as to not arouse, inflame or in any way upset the opposing debater you are capitulating. This does absolutely nothing but diminish your ability to get your point across.
What I really find funny is the fact that with most of the people who demand you talk to them in a PC manor, they flat out refuse to utilize the same format and will attack you in the most vile ways.
"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"
Andre Norton's website - Andre-Norton-Books.com
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#5
(February 5th, 2021, 05:16 PM)Irene Wrote: Bashers???   Oh I hope not. I kind of like HERE ABIDE MONSTERS    

I still haven't finished BREED TO COME      I'm not much for talking animals.   I can't quite see these cats as people.

Irene, "Bashers" is an exaggeration. The first commenter criticizes that this story had too many tropes which drove the plot. The second comment is Judith disagreeing with the first commenter's definition of "plot". The 3rd comments that she read it as a child and remembers enjoying it and would have liked to read a sequel. The 4th commenter had also read it as a pre-teen and claims it put him off Andre's works though he had previously enjoyed "Dragon Magic" and a few others. The 5th commenter (me) compared it to Knave of Dreams, Wraiths of Time, Wheel of Stars, and Garan the Eternal and said it didn't really belong paired with Yurth Burden which was a future sci-fi title and also said it was a bit like the Books of Magic novels but aimed at an older audience.

As for Judith's analysis, it's not unfair. Yes, it's critical but it's criticisms are well reasoned and far from bashing. In summary: the comments are 2 critical, 1 positive, one neutral (and a side-comment from Judith).

I briefly considered a discussion on "political correctness" but I feel it would be "bashed".
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#6
Quote:I briefly considered a discussion on "political correctness" but I feel it would be "bashed".

Not Here! "Bashing" is not allowed.  Angel


Just making an observation!  Wink
"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"
Andre Norton's website - Andre-Norton-Books.com
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#7
Jay, your pleas have not fallen on deaf ears but I think the pattern of negativity is very consistent in recent discussions.

Just because some of the comments are bashing doesn't mean they all are, but I stand by what I wrote. Judith Tarr has cultivated a community where it's okay to bash Andre Norton's works - sometimes with painfully accurate truths and sometimes with irresponsible distortions.

Criticizing the bashing is unwelcome, as you found out.

It's not easy to moderate a divided discussion. People get the impression that I rule SF-Fandom with an iron hand, but I'm occasionally overruled by the moderator team and I live by their judgments. I prefer not to take interventive action, and sometimes when I do I'm wrong. I rarely see forum and Website moderators admit to being wrong. But we're all human and I know many moderators on many sites who struggle with their judgment calls just as I do.

It's not "my" community. There is no community without all of you, and the boundaries you folks draw for me are a vital and important part of all discussions. I'm just sorry the Tor discussions have weighed so heavily into the negative on Andre's works. But every great author is followed by divided communities.
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#8
Thank you Michael.

I always assume that this post is being read by a 10 year old and a Grandmother, and keep the posts inside of those standards.
Irene
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#9
Michael Wrote
Quote:Jay, your pleas have not fallen on deaf ears but I think the pattern of negativity is very consistent in recent discussions.

The discussions there or am I being called out for my complaints about TOR.com post. I am good either way, just trying to make sure I read it correctly.

As you may have noticed over the years I celebrate being the realist at every party.  Big Grin
"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"
Andre Norton's website - Andre-Norton-Books.com
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#10
it has taken me over a month to actually read HERE ABIDE MONSTERS

I still quite like the story. I did take a slightly different path this time, and read Judith Tarr's review, before writing my own, I think that Judith makes one simple mistake. She assumes that Nick, the protagonist is 18. I think he is 17, and at that age even a year of maturity can make a big difference in the way people look at someone. I am reminded about a young man who had been adopted by a friend. I only saw him at the annual Special Olympics event. One year, several people noticed that he wasn't acting "quite" his age. You see, at this point Anthony was about 6'3", and built like a football player. They were expecting an adult. What they were looking at was actually a child of 14.

Nick is about 17, and is felt old enough to spend a long weekend at the family lake cabin. He is dissatisfied with his step-mother, who he thinks is taking his dad away. But in one more year he should be free. He motors up on his bike. He stops at the small convenience store on the way, and stocks up on fresh bread and other easily portable fare. Linda has also stopped her jeep on the way to a cabin property, and has loaded several cases of soda, and a couple of watermelons. Both Nick and the store keeper, share an uncomfortable feeling. The only road to the lake is also a pass that has had a history of disappearances. So Nick offers to lead Linda, and her trusty dog down the road so that she doesn't get lost. But, lost they are. Wonderfully lost. Lost into another world, where there are unicorns, Uncut forests, creatures of fairy, and people from several places and times on earth. They join up with a band of 6 people from WWII England, who help them survive for a while. But this is no long term solution. That is only through accepting Avalon.
Irene
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