Sauron on a fell beast
#1
Do you think that Sauron could ride a fell beast if he wanted to?
Reply
#2
Don't see why not. Bear in mind JRRT stated in a Letter his 3rd Age physical form when he returned to Mordor was a big but not giant humanoid (not a big Eye!). Maybe that's how he escaped Dol Guldur after Saruman and the White Council attacked him during the Erebor Expedition of The Hobbit, and later how he got to Mordor.
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
Reply
#3
I am thinking along similar lines.
But it is possible that Sauron is too heavy for the fell beast to carry him.

The reason for this is that i view the Ringwraiths as ghosts, that Sauron has invested his power
to give the Ringwraith an ability to interact with the physical world.
Therefore it stands to reason that the Ringwraiths are very light, compared to Sauron.
Reply
#4
Maybe 2 can carry him on a line between them....?

Just what is the airspeed of an unladen fell beast, anyway?
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
Reply
#5
(February 4th, 2021, 12:01 AM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: Maybe 2 can carry him on a line between them....?

Just what is the airspeed of an unladen fell beast, anyway?

African or European?
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
Reply
#6
While I like a Monty Python reference as much as the next person, now this thread is bugging me. How DID Sauron get around, from Dol Guldur to the East, back again to Dol Guldur and then finally(?) to Mordor, once he had re-formed his body. Could he still 'walk unseen' in those days?
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
Reply
#7
My hypothesis is that Sauron could still “walk unclad” even after Akallabeth.

Evidence: we know that he was rendered discarnate by the Akallabeth, and that it took him a very long time to be able to muster the will to re-incarnate. From this I surmise that a discarnate form was the “natural” or lowest energy state. Similarly, after the destruction of the Ring, he was reduced to an impotent spirit, never again able to affect events in Arda, but doomed to impotent hatred.

It could be that the post-Numenor incarnate form was a “metastable” state, and that he did not have the ability to change it further, but there really isn’t any evidence of that that I can think of.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
Reply
#8
Sauron was still a shape-shifter. He could, presumably, alter his mass in some way as well. I don't think Tolkien considered anything like that. I can't think of anything in his private notes concerning the physics of shape-shifting.

How much does a balrog weigh, considering that it's body consists of flame and "shadowstuff"?
Reply
#9
(February 10th, 2021, 12:20 PM)Michael Wrote: Sauron was still a shape-shifter. He could, presumably, alter his mass in some way as well. I don't think Tolkien considered anything like that. I can't think of anything in his private notes concerning the physics of shape-shifting.

How much does a balrog weigh, considering that it's body consists of flame and "shadowstuff"?

Interesting, I think that Tolkien had similar ideas as Robert E Howard (Conan stories), that supernatural beings/demons
needed a physical body in order to interact with the world. 
So i think that the Balrog had a physical body.
Reply
#10
Tolkien does imply there is physicality to the balrog's body. But it also survives being trapped in a cave-in when Gandalf collapses part of the mountain on it. We can at best propose theories to explain how these things work in the story. We'll never fully understand how he envisioned them working.
Reply
#11
He probably rode a warg or steed like the ring wraiths.
Don't insult the precious, my precious!:book:
Reply
#12
(February 6th, 2021, 05:54 AM)Mordomin Wrote: While I like a Monty Python reference as much as the next person, now this thread is bugging me.  How DID Sauron get around, from Dol Guldur to the East, back again to Dol Guldur and then finally(?) to Mordor, once he had re-formed his body.  Could he still 'walk unseen' in those days?

Seeing as he was an anthropoid rather than a big ol' Eye, I guess "unicycle" isn't actually off the table!  Big Grin
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
Reply
#13
(February 3rd, 2021, 03:34 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: Don't see why not. Bear in mind JRRT stated in a Letter his 3rd Age physical form when he returned to Mordor was a big but not giant humanoid (not a big Eye!). Maybe that's how he escaped Dol Guldur after Saruman and the White Council attacked him during the Erebor Expedition of The Hobbit, and later how he got to Mordor.

That is a great thought and I love this hypothesis. Thanks. 


(February 3rd, 2021, 06:34 PM)gzhindra Wrote: I am thinking along similar lines.
But it is possible that Sauron is too heavy for the fell beast to carry him.

The reason for this is that i view the Ringwraiths as ghosts, that Sauron has invested his power
to give the Ringwraith an ability to interact with the physical world.
Therefore it stands to reason that the Ringwraiths are very light, compared to Sauron.


Gandalf was easily carried by the eagles and since they were the same category, perhaps weight is of no issue. Especially if Sauron was not in a complete physical form like Gandalf.
Reply
#14
I think that, by the end of the Third Age if not for the previous 2,000 years, Sauron had the ability to disembody himself and move silently (or however) across Middle-earth. But he chose not to (apparently).

As for the "great eye" body/shape, I used to think that it was only metaphorical. But Sam and Frodo actually saw it though it takes a long time for Tolkien to reveal (to them and to the reader) that the red light Frodo and Sam see from afar is the great eye.

I quoted all the relevant passages I could find in this 2012 blog post:

LINK: What Did Sauron Look Like?

This is one of the most masterful transitions from vagueness to clarity in Tolkien's fiction I can think of - perhaps his best transition ever.
Reply
#15
(October 15th, 2021, 03:36 PM)Michael Wrote: I think that, by the end of the Third Age if not for the previous 2,000 years, Sauron had the ability to disembody himself and move silently (or however) across Middle-earth. But he chose not to (apparently).

As for the "great eye" body/shape, I used to think that it was only metaphorical. But Sam and Frodo actually saw it though it takes a long time for Tolkien to reveal (to them and to the reader) that the red light Frodo and Sam see from afar is the great eye.

I quoted all the relevant passages I could find in this 2012 blog post:

LINK: What Did Sauron Look Like?

This is one of the most masterful transitions from vagueness to clarity in Tolkien's fiction I can think of - perhaps his best transition ever.

It's possible that Sauron simply HAD a flaming eye and that when he was "searching" (whether for something in the physical world or someone's mind) all that was seen by those unfortunate enough to encounter him only really focused on the eye.
Reply
#16
My interpretation of the flaming eye, is that it is the outward manifestation of 
Sauron using the Palantir. 
For comparison look at the chapter "the pyre of Denethor" during the battle of Minas Tirith when Denethor uses the 
Palantir.
"many of us saw a strange light in the topmost chamber. It has long been rumored in the city that the Lord would at times wrestle in thought with his enemy"
When Frodo looks in Galadriels mirror, I think he saw Sauron's eye from the viewpoint of the Palantir.
Reply

MYCode Guide

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Sauron defying lightning at the temple gzhindra 20 384 July 24th, 2022, 09:51 AM
Last Post: gzhindra
  Why Gandalf silenced the hobbits in front of the voice of Sauron? badlands 6 232 May 23rd, 2022, 01:09 PM
Last Post: Michael
  How did Sauron become a necromancer? badlands 4 306 February 13th, 2022, 03:38 PM
Last Post: Alvin Eriol
  WI Saruman killed Sauron Jaak 20 4,951 December 2nd, 2021, 05:04 PM
Last Post: Michael
  The mouth of Sauron's horse gzhindra 11 1,290 May 31st, 2021, 07:14 PM
Last Post: Michael
  Saruman's and Sauron's Fea Travis Stephens 7 1,601 November 4th, 2020, 09:10 PM
Last Post: Travis Stephens
  The Mouth of Sauron had a darker skin tone badlands 2 1,211 August 4th, 2020, 10:36 PM
Last Post: Alvin Eriol
  Sauron's favorites Mordomin 4 902 June 21st, 2020, 10:23 AM
Last Post: Michael
  Why didn't Sauron sack Rivendell? Mordomin 8 2,168 February 22nd, 2020, 05:24 AM
Last Post: Travis Stephens
  Was Sauron present at the sack of Eregion? Mordomin 5 1,482 February 14th, 2020, 09:35 PM
Last Post: Mordomin

Forum Jump: