Why didn't Sauron sack Rivendell?
#1
I am talking about in the immediate aftermath of the sacking of Eregion, in 1697 S.A.  The next entry in "The Tale of Years" says "1699: Sauron overruns Eriador".  What protected Imladris in those days?  It can't have been military power; the power of the Noldor in Eregion had been crushed, and whatever strength Gil-galad might have sent with Elrond could not have been greater than that which Sauron defeated while overrunning Eriador.

And it is hard to believe that Elrond was able to hide his 'valley' so quickly from Sauron's armies, given that there was a trail of refugees leading from Eregion more or less directly to it.

Did Elrond inherit an ability from Melian, his Maian ancestress, to hide a place with enchantments?  If so, is that what he called upon in order to establish the refuge?
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#2
According to Unfinished Tales Sauron sent an army north to follow Elrond's retreat and Elrond was besieged in Imladris. But Sauron himself turned west and led the main assault against Gil-Galad.
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#3
(February 4th, 2020, 10:31 PM)Michael Wrote: According to Unfinished Tales Sauron sent an army north to follow Elrond's retreat and Elrond was besieged in Imladris. But Sauron himself turned west and led the main assault against Gil-Galad.
Thank you!  That makes sense.  Out of curiousity, any thoughts on what Captain might have left behind to oversee the siege of Imladris?
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#4
(February 6th, 2020, 09:15 PM)Mordomin Wrote:
(February 4th, 2020, 10:31 PM)Michael Wrote: According to Unfinished Tales Sauron sent an army north to follow Elrond's retreat and Elrond was besieged in Imladris. But Sauron himself turned west and led the main assault against Gil-Galad.
Thank you!  That makes sense.  Out of curiousity, any thoughts on what Captain might have left behind to oversee the siege of Imladris?

I had the impression from "History of Galadriel and Celebron" in Unfinished Tales, that when Sauron had finished sacking Ost-in-Edhel and put Celebrimbor to death, he first drove against Elrond and Celeborn to the North, forcing them back north of Eregion into the gorges of the wild foothills country of Imladris where they dug in, but Sauron's overwhelming assault was stayed when the Dwarves emerged from the West-gate of Moria and attacked Sauron's host in the rear, forcing him to defend against them and drive them back. (Though not stated anywhere in canon, it could well be this was when Glorfindel first came to Elrond's aid).

This gave Elrond's & Celeborn's forces a respite and a chance to build defenses. Sauron decided not to assault them again with his full force, as no Rings were to be found among them, but instead headed for Lindon where he hoped to take 1 or 2 of the Three from Gil-Galad. At that time, he ravaged all of Eriador until he reached the River Lune, which would include the lands that became the Shire, and prepared to cross into Lindon. (Presumably he might have left the Old Forest alone as he had no reason to waste time and effort rumbling with the dreaded and powerful primeval entity Iarwain Ben-Adair, and the Tyrn Gorthad barrows weren't haunted yet.) He had to break off that assault and deal with the Númenórean hosts landing and marching to counterattack.

As to what captain Sauron left behind bottling up Elrond (and presumably Celeborn, maybe Glorfindel as well) in Rivendell, there of course were as yet no Ringwraiths; indeed, Sauron had just obtained the Nine Rings and wouldn't bestow any on Men until at least several years hence when the aftermath of the war had settled down and Númenóreans were settling in Eriador and Belfalas. One would think maybe the Sauron-worshipping lord of some force of Easterling or Southron allies might be assigned the task, although I guess some particularly powerful perhaps 'Boldog' Orc-chief, or even an especially mighty Elf-lord already under Sauron's curse, whose will was totally subjugated to that of Sauron by the power of the One Ring, couldn't necessarily be ruled out!
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#5
(February 2nd, 2020, 05:35 PM)Mordomin Wrote: I am talking about in the immediate aftermath of the sacking of Eregion, in 1697 S.A.  The next entry in "The Tale of Years" says "1699: Sauron overruns Eriador".  What protected Imladris in those days?  It can't have been military power; the power of the Noldor in Eregion had been crushed, and whatever strength Gil-galad might have sent with Elrond could not have been greater than that which Sauron defeated while overrunning Eriador.

And it is hard to believe that Elrond was able to hide his 'valley' so quickly from Sauron's armies, given that there was a trail of refugees leading from Eregion more or less directly to it.

Did Elrond inherit an ability from Melian, his Maian ancestress, to hide a place with enchantments?  If so, is that what he called upon in order to establish the refuge?



Sauron had probably received word that the Numenoreans had begun to send forces and equipment to /middle Earth and had started upgrading and fortifying the ports along the coast of Eriador,  during or right after he sacked Eregion.  Going after Elrond and the remnants of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain  would not make sense strategically.  Sauron was in a race to reach the Lune and the Grey Havens to prevent the Numenoreans from landing their forces there.  If he succeeded in gaining this objective, Sauron could dispose of Elrond at his leisure.  Sauron probably just left a token force to keep Elrond from being able to leave Imladris.
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#6
He probably did have some protection or he had treaty with him. Maybe the rings were treaties?
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#7
Well, the details of the War of the Elves and Sauron are rather scant. I suppose either reading would be acceptable.
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#8
(February 13th, 2020, 04:32 AM)Travis Stephens Wrote:
(February 2nd, 2020, 05:35 PM)Mordomin Wrote: I am talking about in the immediate aftermath of the sacking of Eregion, in 1697 S.A.  The next entry in "The Tale of Years" says "1699: Sauron overruns Eriador".  What protected Imladris in those days?  It can't have been military power; the power of the Noldor in Eregion had been crushed, and whatever strength Gil-galad might have sent with Elrond could not have been greater than that which Sauron defeated while overrunning Eriador.

And it is hard to believe that Elrond was able to hide his 'valley' so quickly from Sauron's armies, given that there was a trail of refugees leading from Eregion more or less directly to it.

Did Elrond inherit an ability from Melian, his Maian ancestress, to hide a place with enchantments?  If so, is that what he called upon in order to establish the refuge?



Sauron had probably received word that the Numenoreans had begun to send forces and equipment to /middle Earth and had started upgrading and fortifying the ports along the coast of Eriador,  during or right after he sacked Eregion.
  That seems unlikely, since the Numenoreans didn't land in Lindon until 1700, four years after Sauron had sacked Eregion. 
(February 13th, 2020, 04:32 AM)Travis Stephens Wrote: Going after Elrond and the remnants of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain  would not make sense strategically.  Sauron was in a race to reach the Lune and the Grey Havens to prevent the Numenoreans from landing their forces there.  If he succeeded in gaining this objective, Sauron could dispose of Elrond at his leisure.  Sauron probably just left a token force to keep Elrond from being able to leave Imladris.
I agree! 'Shove them aside, keep your eye on the prize!'.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#9
(February 14th, 2020, 09:58 PM)Mordomin Wrote:
(February 13th, 2020, 04:32 AM)Travis Stephens Wrote: Sauron had probably received word that the Numenoreans had begun to send forces and equipment to /middle Earth and had started upgrading and fortifying the ports along the coast of Eriador,  during or right after he sacked Eregion.
  That seems unlikely, since the Numenoreans didn't land in Lindon until 1700, four years after Sauron had sacked Eregion. 
(February 13th, 2020, 04:32 AM)Travis Stephens Wrote: Going after Elrond and the remnants of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain  would not make sense strategically.  Sauron was in a race to reach the Lune and the Grey Havens to prevent the Numenoreans from landing their forces there.  If he succeeded in gaining this objective, Sauron could dispose of Elrond at his leisure.  Sauron probably just left a token force to keep Elrond from being able to leave Imladris.
I agree!  'Shove them aside, keep your eye on the prize!'.

The Numenoreans also landed at their point on the Gwatho.  According to whatever source you use, the port had to be rebuilt either from scratch or enlarged and modified to handle the extra ships and men.  Regardless, the Numenoreans had to put soldiers there to protect and fortify the port.  

Sauron would have been aware of this.  But he probably did not have to forces to attack the Numenoreans, considering he had to worry about Imladris, Moria, and Lorien.   Sauron, militarily, was overextended and had concentrated his forces in an attempt to take the Lune and the Grey Havens.  I would say it was an "all or none" gamble.
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