Shadow Hawk - Discussion - or When is a good story NOT?
#1
When is a good story not a good story?

When people like Judith Tarr read it. Why must all the books of Andre's that Judith reads have to be written today? I really do not understand. I get the impression that Judith and her followers would burn all of the books written before the totally screwed up times we live in (Say pre 2010). And I'm not just talking Andre's stories. For if you read the 72 reviews that Judith has done so far she disparages every one of them because of some aspect or another that today makes some snow-flake somewhere upset.

Andre's stories are rather generic and are not meant to preach or lecture anybody for anything. They are purely entertaining and that is why I love Andre's work so much. I read to escape, not to be left feeling guilty of something I didn't do or want to cry for the polar bears (so to say).

Every-so-often Judith makes some wacky statement that makes me really wonder about the intelligence of the worlds over educated.
In the Shadow Hawk review she makes one of dumbest statements I have read. "Skin-color racism is a very American phenomenon", Is she joking? I personally don't care how much she or others hate America (well yes I do) but I have learned not to argue with such stupidity. Check your history or just check international news every so often and you see examples of "Skin-color racism" in every single society out there. I do not swallow this crap that only white men are racist.
If I had not been following her reviews and noting them on my site for just shy of three years now I would completely ignore her work after reading such "general statement nonsense".

Yes-Yes I know that some would say this is not the place to bring up topics like this. If I could post there I would, but I have been banned because they don't accept opposing views no matter how polite they were written. Don't believe me - go over there and post an argument opposing anyone's (Judith or her commenters) view. You will be banned permanently.

I would love to be in a room where Andre was present and defending her work to the likes of Judith Tarr. Andre would politely eat her alive.
My main question to Judith is - How you can praise someone like Andre for her body of work then so savagely attack every piece of that work? (Read her reviews - maybe you'll see it - maybe you wont.)
"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"
Andre Norton's website - Andre-Norton-Books.com
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#2
Many sites ban people for disagreeing with their points of view. Try not to let it get to you.

That said, people all over the world have a very limited perspective on "us vs. them". It just comes of being 1 out of 7 billion+ people in a very diverse population.
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#3
Wow - Am I really coming off as "letting it get to me" - If so - sorry. Was not my intention. I am trying to provoke a discussion by the only means I know how. Stating an observation or view I have in my plain uneducated manor.

But since you mention it - I think it is a travesty and it will be the death of us, that so many people have become so afraid of opposing views or being so afraid of stating that they have an opposing view that we no longer actually discuss things. We just call each other names or play the "Talk to the hand" game.

I believe that if I had this view I would not tell people to go read her reviews and make up their own minds. I would stop reading them myself and then never mention it again.

I guess the one good thing is that it is not just an American thing but is world wide and we (Americans) just seemed to have jumped in the pool with blinders on. I hate group think no matter what language it's in.

I stated what really got to me. Which was a statement of such stupidity made by one of the self proclaimed ubber educated. It drags her whole thesis down below the level of say "ME" that I'm completely shocked she could show such level of ignorance.

I Only noted the fact I had been banned there to keep people from thinking I was posting here instead of there because of fear of not being accepted or some stuff like that. Although you may have noticed that on my website I do not post my opinions anywhere. This is by design, I post facts and other peoples opinions so that the user can form their own and not be contaminated by the likes of me.

And now I'm rambling _ Shame on me.
"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"
Andre Norton's website - Andre-Norton-Books.com
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#4
Sometimes we just need to ramble. But I think the Internet makes it easy for people to feel less empathy toward one another. They may say things online they wouldn't say to someone face to face. People are quick to judge in online discussions (including me) and it's hard to see things another way once you've taken a position on something.

Regarding skin-color racism, I'd say that India has struggled with it for thousands of years. I'd think that was a well-documented situation. I learned about it in school. It's definitely not "a very American phenomenon".
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#5
Hmmm.

I haven't read the review - and don't have time right now.

However to perhaps smooth the sand. SHADOW HAWK is the only Andre Norton book that I know of, translated to Arabic.

Racism is in every country that has more than one race. And if there is only one race in that country, "The Other" will be defined in another way (Dark haired Irish, different tribes in Africa). We are not going to solve this problem here.

Note: I have stopped re-reading the books by E. Nesbit because, though correct for the time they were written, I am not comfortable with how some off hand comments about the Jew in their neighborhood. Perhaps I should get over that, and pick up the books again.

Connie Willis has a character in her Time Travel book being glad to be Black (actually Indian or Pakastani) as he cannot be made to time travel to pre-WWI England.

BUT, of all Andre Norton's books, where many of her characters are non-white, have a certain level of color-blindness. Certainly many of them fit into the 21st century level of how people are treated.
Irene
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#6
Well actually Judith is accusing Andre of being a racist.

Judith states:

"The most problematical of these assumptions for me, in 2019, are the ones having to do with race and ethnicity. Skin-color racism is a very American phenomenon, and it manifests in the depiction of the “Kush” as jet-black jungle barbarians who speak no civilized language. Not only is this historically inaccurate, it’s straightforwardly racist. Excusing the equally dark Nubians because they’re allies (and suitably subordinate to the lighter-skinned commander) is in no way better, and adding a white savior in the form of Icar and his red-bearded associate/subordinate just compounds the problem."


Andre was the least racist person I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"
Andre Norton's website - Andre-Norton-Books.com
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#7
Ironically, some of her stories dealt with racism. Characters had to unlearn preconceived notions about people of other cultures and ethnic backgrounds. I think some of her tropes would strike people as being racist, but she was portraying characters and cultures that were projected from the social upheavals of the mid-20th century - and racism was being challenged in many countries.

But not everyone has to read the stories that way.
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