The Jardgoon Pard vs Warding of Witch World
#1
1. Why didn=t the foreseeing or reading of Kethan=s future, where he was to be an ADEPT come true? P.138-140, The Jargoon Pard, ANow the Eight House--wherein lie your nature gifts--The Magician!@ AMastery of skill, of wisdom, the ability to direct Power through desire into manifestation--@ p.138. AThe ability to take Power from above, direct that through desire into manifestation@ and Aruling Power of belief, the need to be one with others--@(adept, mage) p.139. ABut her foretelling . . .  Master of skill and wisdom . . . @ AThere were such--one heard tales of them-- the Voices, others, some of the Dark, some of the Light. But they dwelled apart, and one might not see one in a long lifetime-- nor even meet another human who had seen one!@ Kethan was to be one of the Adepts, but in your latest book you seem to have forgotten this! But why didn=t this happen? Kethan=s ability to shape change & Were powers should be the least of his talents. The Were blood in Kethan is the key, when mixed with the Old Race of his mother=s Witch blood causes it to combined into a powerful mixture. Never has Witch and Were blood blended in a child. A... forge from their uniting a third stronger more powerful than either alone.@ Whenever different lesser powers combine, there results a stronger blend than either parent. If only one parent has talent, the best the child could have is similar power to that parent, but unlikely to be greater since the talent is diluted by the blood of the parent who has none. If both parents have similar talents, the child will have similar talent, depending on whether the parents both have great or lesser abilities. But when different talents and gifts are mixed, the result is a wildcard or freak of nature with more powers than either parent, since the child has a combination of both heritages. AThough that part of the power which is wield by a sorceress is not the same as that of which a Warlock or Wizard may summon still she (the wise woman trained Kethan) gave me what training she deemed useful.@ p.17. Who=s to say when Ursilla called upon Dark powers on that fateful night and awoke the Ancient Guardians of Arvon, what those Powers did to the two babies yet to be born? AHer efforts in that direction (obtaining a male heir) evoked the knowledge of one to whom is entrusted the duty of keeping the balance of power here in Arvon.@ p.194. ABut Ursilla . . .  felt the beat of wild nature=s force . . . @ AIn her grew fear and wonder . . . @ AShe longed to use the Power, to perhaps read the meaning behind the fury that enfold them.@ p.9, Pard. No one knows  who was summoned to the bed of Heroise, to give her the child, an unknown father who had moon talent. Obviously, Kethan and Aylinn are significant players, if Greater Powers interfere in their lives. Did they bless them with extra special gifts and powers? It was cruel that the Powers of Light who knew of the exchange of babies, not only permitted it, but also used it as a tool to their advantage: AThus we made use of her ambition in order to temper those who are to stand firm in times to come.@ p.194. Kethan grew up alone and unloved. ALonely I was, and turned inward upon my thoughts more and more.@ A . . .  my growing loneliness?@ p.30 Aylinn had Gillan and Herrel=s love and care, but Kethan didn=t even have a friend while he lived in Car Do Prawn. He paid the price with a lonely and cruelly painful years for the Ancient Powers meddling in his life. What great purpose did it serve? It=s a wonder, he is not full of hate and rage at Ibycus and the Light for using him so. What glorious, grand purpose did it serve, to grow up separated from loving parents? His cousin, Maughus, bullied and tormented him, for he was jealous that Kethan was to gain Lordship of Car Do Prawn, for which he was being trained.
 

The rest of the questions have been moved to a secondary thread.  - Irene
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#2
There is a whole lot of questions here, and in teeny tiny print.  How about we break this down. 

Well. You write this as if Andre Norton was still alive. She isn't, so all and any answers will be suppositions. 
 Your basic question: " Why didn't the reading of Kethan's future, that he was to be an Adept, come true?"

My answer is that He has not yet become an Adept.  This would require innate ability, desire, and training.  AND perhaps a slew of years in which to become more than he has yet become.

My second answer is that perhaps the telling of the cards was not in error, but inexact in level of skill.  And Adept is such a nice word.
Irene
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#3
These questions have been answered twice before on this forum by myself and other members. Some there are just no answers for as the great lady has passed.
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#4
Yes, we have tried to answer, but I'm OK in starting part of the thread again..... Just not the whole 11 questions at one time.

Jargon Pard is one of my favorite books.

Kethan being "tested" by his upbringing, though that was adversarial, was a standard Andre Norton story line... Young person, living with (poverty, disfigurement, stature-big or small) something that makes him stand out from the other people, overcoming this difference, and finding a place to become MORE. Mostly by finding strength in themselves.
Irene
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#5
I'm sorry to say, Warding is not one of my favorite Witch World books. It's okay for what it is, but it really doesn't fit well in continuity. It's understandable she wanted to close the universe, but I don't feel that was a good way to do it (or a good idea anyway, given she'd previously had welcomed authors to write for it).
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#6
Yes every 5 years I post this letter to Andre Norton and I usually get some interesting response. But not this time.

So I will tell you that in 1997 I wrote this letter to her. She only chose to respond to one of my question were she said that "Kethan and Alylinn had found other mates. She went on to complement me on my "book report" on the Jargoon Pard. She said there would be no other Witch World books. She added that she had picked out a author to write in Witch World but it could not be in any of lands that included Estcarp, Escore, Arvon or in the Dales. As far as I know after 1997 there has not been another author writing in this world. Her letter was very short.

After a year or two I revised the same letter and resend it to Andre Norton but I did not get a response.

After I posted the letter on this Andre Norton Sci-fi fandon website someone suggested I only send a short letter where she might respond but she did not respond to my very short letter.
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#7
Well Andre Norton died March 17, 2005. I think that for the last several years of her life, she wasn't writing very much, and I posit, sleeping quite a lot. My last visit with her, she was in bed or in wheel chair. But as that was 15 years ago, I'm not sure that I'm remembering this well.
Andre Norton's last book THREE HANDS FOR SCORPIO was published by TOR after her death. My personal belief is that they sat on the title, choosing not to publish it during her life time.

Your reposting of a very long letter, with 11 major questions and many sub points and research is very nice, but almost impossible to answer in any comprehensive way. AND Please forgive me: Asking the same question more than once and expecting a different answer can only lead to frustration. AND causing the moderator to get Grumpier than she normally is.

So, may I suggest that you take your ONE most pressing question (without a dozen sub-questions) and posit it as a topic for discussion.
Example: Could the original Tarot reading for Kethan be because all weres are Adepts, and Kethan being of Were blood (though only a quarter) have some Adept powers?
Irene
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#8
I would say one of the reasons there are so many mistakes in the Warding of Witch World. Memory loss has to be it. I can speak with personal experience. My memory in 1997 was far superior to what it is now. I can read an Andre Norton book now and I will forget much of it within a few months.

I was told that Andre Norton hired someone to write a summary of all her witch world books plus the summary included all the other authors who wrote on the subject. I think this person did her a disservice. The Jargoon Pard was not include. Hence, the many errors.
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#9
Juanita Coulson wrote a bible for the works of Andre Norton. I believe that when it was offered to NESFA Press it was rejected because of the omission of what the Publication committee felt were major titles. NESFA Press does sometimes publish these, which they call a "Concordance".

Looks like I have a copy: Coulson, Juanita, WW time line with character sketches, Manuscript ; but I have no idea of where that is, except that it's someplace in the house.

The joke, on all of us, being that there is no confusion-free World order, no clear building upon ALL of the previous work. Andre Norton didn't write that way. She took a character, usually an isolated young-adult or teen, and walked them through the fire and pain of self discovery. Then she went to the next character who knocked on her door (via pen/typewriter/computer). Andre was a virtual technophobe, and while that served her characters and stories well (no exacting details of what a radio was - just people using the device), she didn't have a searchable database. [ See * below for comments on other authors.]

In fact the only way that the Witch World can be placed into a single unified world is the way that Jay Watts, AKA Lots-o-Watts, has been doing with the Andre Norton site. http://andre-norton-books.com/
This site has a collection of everything that could be collected in one place. I contributed photocopies of many magazine items, and a few unique items from my own collection (I think a photo album, and the single sheet of the MEXICAN SWORD, and some other strange stuff.) Thank you Jay for your work.

So, Jack - this being the discussion site - we can discuss stuff. But we cannot correct the past. We can discuss what made WARDING such a (mishmash) problem. And perhaps why trying to tie up all of the various threads and characters in one book, might have been so fraught with confusion. But we cannot go back and fix differences to plot points or characters.

Andre Norton had at least 30 Witch World books, and another 140 (or so) titles in her Bibliography. That's at least hmm 3.5 of my 3 foot shelves to the right of my computer, with the anthology and magazines upstairs. There is no way anyone can keep that much straight in their mind when writing the next book. Since WITCH WORLD was 1963, no way even the most studious of her fans could keep everything 'straight'. Heck even the naming of the years.... i.e. Year of the Unicorn, Year of the spotted pig (OK I just made that one up), etc aren't consistent, making some of her readers think that some names were local to just a single Dale, or other isolated place. (SPELL - Year of the Salamander)

So - for plot points on JARGOON PARD & WARDING, well I am sure that there were differences, and I remember earlier questions; including Why the two young people in JARGOON PARD didn't develop a love interest. Lots of questions, but no way to get real answers on "Why".

* The authors Sharon Lee and Sever Miller are only on their 22 titles in their Liaden universe (not counting the short stories). All of the books have electronic versions. So they could conceivable do an electronic search of the books for "Pleasure Planet", but if you don't remember the name of the Planet, how can you search for it. How can you search for What color are Patti's eyes? What they do is announce scavenger hunts on Facebook, to find the name of one (or more) pleasure planet, or "What color eyes?" The also had the giant ARC hunt for tyops (spelling intended). They even have a name for these searchers... Spanish Aunts [from tia which comes from T.I.A. = Thanks In Advance) AND I still think that I spotted one typo in the most recent book, but it wasn't wrong enough for me to pencil it down while reading. These are modern authors.

For Andre Norton, there is only us.
Irene
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#10
Jack wrote:
Quote:I was told that Andre Norton hired someone to write a summary of all her witch world books plus the summary included all the other authors who wrote on the subject. I think this person did her a disservice. The Jargoon Pard was not include. Hence, the many errors.

If we are talking about something other than "Juanita Coulson's Index to Witch World" I would like to know what it is. For Juanita's Index is the only non-fan created work that I know of.
It doesn't summarize each book in The Witch World Saga but does call out all the important characters, places. events, and things that appear in each story, and defines them. Which is why I refer to it as a dictionary on my website. It does include "The Jargoon Pard".
What is excluded are any titles published after 1996 (which are collaborative works), and a few WW short stories that appeared in anthologies like Catfantastic.
The Jargoon Pard entry IS in the Index, it is not very lengthy but it is there.


Irene wrote:
Quote:Juanita Coulson wrote a bible for the works of Andre Norton. I believe that when it was offered to NESFA Press it was rejected because of the omission of what the Publication committee felt were major titles. NESFA Press does sometimes publish these, which they call a "Concordance".

I'm thinking NESFA Press didn't publish the index because it really is not of any value to the reader. It's a research tool, valuable to the writer as it does not summarize anything.


If you are looking for extensive summaries you should be looking at the Elwher Wikidot info collected as "The Sorcerer's Comspctus" on my site. "The Jargoon Pard" has the largest write-up page of the info collected and "The Warding of Witch World" comes in as a good second or third.

See: http://andre-norton-books.com/the-witch-...conspectus


Also on the site is a copy of all the questions by Jack from what I think is the first time he posted them here (07/26/2014) with answers from several people.

See: http://andre-norton-books.com/the-witch-...d-timeline


Yes Jack - I archive what ever I can find about Andre and her work.


Many a scholars have written articles about Witch World and they don't all agree. I believe (if memory doesn't fail me) that a Master's thesis or two about Witch World exist. I had them all listed on the old site, but that is one of the things I lost 6 months ago. I still have all the articles and thesis papers just not my list of how they all tie together.

The articles papers can be found within two major sections of my site.
See: http://andre-norton-books.com/articles-a...-the-years
and: http://andre-norton-books.com/non-fiction-by-andre
"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"
Andre Norton's website - Andre-Norton-Books.com
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#11
There are many timeline issues. 

Things actually get weird as early as Gryphon in Glory when Elys and Jervon meet first Joisan and then Kerovan (ignoring the timeline set up in "Dragonscale Silver"). There are ways around that one thanks to "The Sword of Unbelief" and possible time travel, but it's still odd.

Then comes Songsmith. It really messes with things because it basically puts the Turning too far into the past. It'd work fine if it were the Horning or even the invasion of Gorm by the Kolder, but it's impossible for it to be 30 years or more since the Turning. Beyond the timeline weirdness, Alon is odd in this story too. It also brings up questions as to the dragonscale silver cup Elys was supposed to have (she was thinking of using it to bind her and Jervon like she and Elyn had been). Not to mention that in Gryphon's Eyrie it's shown that Kerovan is sensitive to someone trying to breech the Valley's defenses, so I can't figure out how he was okay after Elys had been taken like she was.

Magestone also doesn't work out. It should be at least twelve years since the Turning, not two or three. Parts of the book have the correct ages and parts don't. Kasarian's age is a mess. Beyond the timeline issues, there are plot ones as well because it seems the whole of Elsenar's plan really didn't need Mereth. The state he's in doesn't make any sense at all given that he only went through a Postern not a Gate.

Warding has some continuity issues as well as plot issues. As mentioned, Kethan ought to be able to transform without his belt by this time. That he and Aylinn didn't become the couple that Pard implied they would be is a minor issue. While they're about as close cousins as he and Thaney were, it does make sense that they could come to have a platonic love and find romantic love later. The idea that Elsenar's gem was somehow a master Gate key makes no sense at all. It certainly was likely a powerful gem given its size, but it's hard to imagine anything controlling all the Gates. Even beyond that, Elsenar left with his gem almost immediately after sending Kasarian back through the Postern and nothing had happened like the book details. Further, while it certainly could be possible to seal any extant Gates, even in the book some Dark Mage was trying to open a new one, and everyone knows about the Kolder. It's hard to imagine anything keeping Gates from being opened again either within or without.
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#12
I also think it was a mistake by Andre Norton to have her Bible Summary to incorporate all the Witch World authors and writers who wrote stories who made some mistakes that Norton did not catch. I do not think these people had read all her books so they put their wrong opinions and intrepreations.
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#13
(December 13th, 2019, 10:44 PM)Jack123456 Wrote: I also think it was a mistake by Andre Norton to have her Bible Summary to incorporate all the Witch World authors and writers who wrote stories who made some mistakes that Norton did not catch. I do not think these people had read all her books so they put their wrong opinions and intrepreations.

I have held my tongue on that topic for many years. I was never very happy about most of the collaborators' contributions to the Witch World. I deliberately omitted most of their information from my own Witch World site.

But done is done, as they say.
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#14
I always feel broadsided when people mention Kethan & Aislyn becoming a couple. Even as a teen when I first read Jargoon Pard, I thought the interest was only on Kethan’s part at first, as I figured out they were cousins before he did, and Aislyn seemed to be worshiping the maiden moon goddess Dians and wasn’t interested in him in that way. At the end it felt like they formed a close family unit, the four of them, and their bond became brother-sister, more than romantic. So whenever people ship them, I have an instinctive “ew!” reaction.
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#15
(December 17th, 2019, 07:54 PM)Marron4Gateau Wrote: I always feel broadsided when people mention Kethan & Aislyn becoming a couple. Even as a teen when I first read Jargoon Pard, I thought the interest was only on Kethan’s part at first, as I figured out they were cousins before he did, and Aislyn seemed to be worshiping the maiden moon goddess Dians and wasn’t interested in him in that way. At the end it felt like they formed a close family unit, the four of them, and their bond became brother-sister, more than romantic. So whenever people ship them, I have an instinctive “ew!” reaction.

Yeah, I was always creeped out that he was going to have to marry his cousin Thaney and while it seemed logical at first for him and Aylinn to get together--especially since she is somehow considered part of the were-heritage: "Your Werekin, with their Dale brides, have forged a new race. These two"--he [Ibycus] gestured to Aylinn and then to me--"are to be counted of that heritage." p.224 The Jargoon Pard--I soon realized that he and Aylinn were just as closely related as he and Thaney were. Ick.
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