Black Hand in dwarf ***?
#1
Do Rings of Power have power of impalpability?
They do not confer impalpability on wearer. As experienced by Frodo, when assailed by Smeagol.

Three Rings do not make wearer invisible. But they do make themselves invisible.
As seen when Sam could not see Ring of Galadriel. Frodo could as his own One Ring ruled Three.

So how about palpability?

There is the detail of Necromancer taking Durin�s Ring from Thrain with torture.
Why? He had the body as prisoner.
Even if Durin�s Ring was invisible to orcs holding Thrain, would a routine strip search without specific infliction of damage and pain, like restraining his wrists and pawing through his fingers, have revealed invisible lumps?

If the Ring was not only invisible but impalpable to Orcs, what would Sauron have done?
He did not have One at hand, and the Nine of the Nazgul did not rule Seven like One did.
But Sauron had some of his native power left as Maia to see what is otherwise unseen.

Could Sauron personally, in His bodily form, searching the live body of Thrain, have perceived stuff his Orcs could not?
Or would the Seven�s power of impalpability have thwarted him the same, even if he did personally conduct a cavity search and stick Black Hand up Thrain�s ***?
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#2
Well, Sam had no trouble locating the One when Frodo was rendered unconscious by Shelob, and the orders given by Sauron to the Cirith Ungol Orcs certainly seem to indicate that he expected them to be able to locate the One as well.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#3
Saruman's orders to the Uruk-hai were very specific that hobbit-prisoners were to be alive and "unspoiled", strongly implying that Saruman believed that the orcs would find the One Ring if they searched the prisoners - assuming that they had caught the right hobbit, that is.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#4
I think the "invisibility" was more an act of will, an intentional shifting or partial shifting into incorporeality. It is connected with fading, but Tolkien doesn't resolve all fan doubts about how these things work so some things are still left to the imagination.

As an act of will, if a ring doesn't act independently (and Bacchus points out in another discussion that only the One Ring appears to do this) then it follows that the will must come from the wearer. The power to hide itself seems to be that of the ring itself, though. Sam didn't see Galadriel's ring (or Elrond's, I presume) until after the One Ring had been destroyed (or perhaps after Galadriel asked him if he had seen her ring). Frodo was able to perceive the Three because he had worn the One Ring, but he wasn't trying. Both Elrond and Gandalf's rings were visible after the One Ring was destroyed. If the wearers were rendering the rings invisible solely of their own abilities, then either the rings would have remained invisible or Tolkien was implying there was no longer a reason to keep them secret.

So I cannot form and express an opinion on whether the rings were hidden by exercising their own powers or the powers of their wearers. Elrond and Galadriel were both very powerful. Elrond said the Three were not made for the same purpose as the Seven and Nine, and either he or Gandalf said that invisibility wasn't one of their powers. On the other hand, the elven cloaks that Galadriel gave to the Fellowship were obviously magical (by hobbit standards) and capable of making it difficult for others to see whomever was wearing them. The elves thus natively possessed some ability to alter perception.
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#5
(May 22nd, 2019, 11:02 AM)Michael Wrote: I think the "invisibility" was more an act of will, an intentional shifting or partial shifting into incorporeality. It is connected with fading, but Tolkien doesn't resolve all fan doubts about how these things work so some things are still left to the imagination.

As an act of will, if a ring doesn't act independently (and Bacchus points out in another discussion that only the One Ring appears to do this) then it follows that the will must come from the wearer. 

Elrond said the Three were not made for the same purpose as the Seven and Nine, and either he or Gandalf said that invisibility wasn't one of their powers. On the other hand, the elven cloaks that Galadriel gave to the Fellowship were obviously magical (by hobbit standards) and capable of making it difficult for others to see whomever was wearing them. The elves thus natively possessed some ability to alter perception.

The invisibility conferred by One Ring on Bilbo obviously had nothing to do with Bilbo´s will. It automatically operated when Bilbo was completely unaware of the power.
Not only did Elves natively have some ability to alter perception. The Elves of Lorien also had the desire to become invisible.
Galadriel had visited Nargothrond (it was during Galadriel´s visit that Finrod mentioned his kingdom would not last).
So had Celebrimbor. He was so far a disciple of Finrod than when his father Curufin quarrelled with Finrod, Celebrimbor ended up siding with Orodreth and deserting his father. (When did Celebrimbor finally leave Nargothrond?)
Elves of Nargothrond liked being unseen, ambushing and intimidating others. This was the basis of Nargothrond´s defence - especially when Celebrimbor was there.
I see here a connection with the purpose of Nine Rings!
But Elves of Nargothrond were also greedy for treasure - they took more with them than the Fingolfians and Feanoreans, who obeyed Feanor´s call to take arms and leave valuables behind.
Fits the purpose of Seven Rings.
And yet Finrod also is seen to have sought wisdom and understanding.
If so, that would fit the aim of Three Rings, valued over Seven and Nine.

Matching the Rings with aims learned from Finrod would fit my hypothesis that Nine had power of invisibility deliberately conferred by Mirdain, while both Seven and Three had it omitted by design.
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#6
You’re hanging an awful lot of speculation on what was, as far as I recall, a one sentence name-check reference in the Silmarillion to Celebrimbor in Nargothrond. There’s a similar name-check of Gil-Galad as the son of Fingon that CRRT later disavowed as an error.

The idea that the Nine were intended by the Elves as Rings of Invisibility, and the Seven were intended as Rings of Wealth strikes me as a kind of hackish Dungeons and Dragons concept. I think it far more likely that their effects when used by Men and Dwarves were unintended and unforeseen (by the Elves) consequences of their being used by unauthorized beings. Sauron appears to have anticipated the effects of the Nine on Men, but to have failed to anticipate the effects of the Seven on Dwarves.

Recall that Gandalf described the One as giving power to Sméagol “according to his stature”. The analogy should carry to the Nine and the Seven as well, IMO.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#7
(May 14th, 2019, 02:25 PM)Jaak Wrote: Could Sauron personally, in His bodily form, searching the live body of Thrain, have perceived stuff his Orcs could not?
Or would the Seven�s power of impalpability have thwarted him the same, even if he did personally conduct a cavity search and stick Black Hand up Thrain�s ***?
As my fan-fiction character is often called "Blackhand", I feel that I must point out that the curse of Sauron, which caused the hand of Mordomin to turn black, actually ended his hitherto flourishing proctology practice in Beleriand.  Mordomin Blackhand was quite incapable of performing searches - cavity or otherwise - of living beings.  At least, if it was intended for the target to go on living...
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#8
(May 28th, 2019, 01:56 AM)Jaak Wrote: The invisibility conferred by One Ring on Bilbo obviously had nothing to do with Bilbo´s will. It automatically operated when Bilbo was completely unaware of the power.

Bilbo didn't know what he had, therefore didn't know how to use it, and may not have had the strength to use. But Bombadil wore the Ring without turning invisible. He clearly had the will to manage its power of invisibility.

Sauron also appeared in visible form when he wore the Ring (although using him as an example may be a cheat, since the Ring was connected to him).

Quote:Not only did Elves natively have some ability to alter perception. The Elves of Lorien also had the desire to become invisible.
Galadriel had visited Nargothrond (it was during Galadriel´s visit that Finrod mentioned his kingdom would not last).
So had Celebrimbor. He was so far a disciple of Finrod than when his father Curufin quarrelled with Finrod, Celebrimbor ended up siding with Orodreth and deserting his father. (When did Celebrimbor finally leave Nargothrond?)

We know very little of Celebrimbor's early story, since he was kind of a backfill character.

But your example with the Elves of Lorien relates to will. I see the use of will is the essence of power or magic in Tolkien's fiction. 

Quote:Matching the Rings with aims learned from Finrod would fit my hypothesis that Nine had power of invisibility deliberately conferred by Mirdain, while both Seven and Three had it omitted by design.

Well, I don't recall if it was Gandalf or Elrond, but one of them said one of the purposes of the Rings was to give the Elves the ability to see and interact with the Unseen (or something to that effect). It's possible that was in a narrative section somewhere.

I agree the Nine and the Seven had the ability to confer invisibility from the beginning. But it would be inconvenient for an Elf wearing a Ring of Power to have to remove it in order to become visible. The Rings should have responded to their wills.

Being rightful keepers would have strengthened their abilities to control the invisibility, just as someone with a lawful right to use a Palantir (either as owner or designate warden) had an enhanced ability to control the Seeing Stones.
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