Why didn't Isildur go back to Rivendell the same way Frodo did?
#61
Bacchus Wrote:i thought of this, but it’s not proven that Sauron ever actually reincarnated in the TA. He remanifested, definitely, but we are never brought into his physical presence.

I think JRRT weighed in on this issue, too, in Letter # 246, which I cited and quoted in this thread. I do believe he was discoursing specifically on the form Sauron took in the Third Age, given the context as I explained.

I think the fact Pippin saw him in the Palantir (which could only show things that actually exist), not to mention Gollum's aside, demonstrates there was actually something to see. (Gally's MIrror, Otoh, probably could represent a disembodied spirit symbolically or something)

Aren't I a stinker?
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#62
Alvin Eriol Wrote:I think JRRT weighed in on this issue, too, in Letter # 246, which I cited and quoted in this thread. I do believe he was discoursing specifically on the form Sauron took in the Third Age, given the context as I explained.

I think the fact Pippin saw him in the Palantir (which could only show things that actually exist), not to mention Gollum's aside, demonstrates there was actually something to see. (Gally's MIrror, Otoh, probably could represent a disembodied spirit symbolically or something)

Aren't I a stinker?

It’s been a while since I read 246, and my copy is in storage. If your interpretation of the passage as set forth in the other thread holds, that’s fairly compelling. Unfortunately, I don’t have access right now to look for myself to see if that’s the only reasonable interpretation.

The Pippin argument I find somewhat less compelling in isolation. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that Sauron could project a visible image without being incarnate as we understand the term. That need not fall foul of the Palantir’s characteristic of only showing the truth...Sauron IS really there, but not necessarily as flesh and blood.

For me, we still remain at only more likely than not. It’s possible that 246 could get me over the hump, but I don’t have access to it at the moment.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#63
Bacchus Wrote:i thought of this, but it�s not proven that Sauron ever actually reincarnated in the TA. He remanifested, definitely, but we are never brought into his physical presence.

Gollum told Frodo and Sam that Sauron had nine fingers.   I believe that, in the book, Sauron was able to change his shape as desired - going from humanoid to "eye thing" and back.  The narrative describes the great eye for the reader when Frodo and Sam cross the mountains into Mordor.

There is no reason to assume that Sauron could not change his body shape once he had recovered the ability to form a body (self-incarnate).  Tolkien only says he could no longer assume an attractive, seductive form.  His rage and anger were slowly taking over, and in the end he would be consumed by those feelings and unable to reincarnate, after the One Ring was destroyed.

Tolkien says the Ring anchored Sauron in the physical world.  It was the source of his strength.
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#64
Mordomin Wrote:I thought that the canon, or at least the consensus in this group, was that Sauron left his Ring in the Barad-dur
when he surrendered himself to Ar-Pharazon and the Numenoreans, and that was how the Ring survived the Downfall (it wasn't there - a simple case of non-presence),
and thus obviating the question of how Sauron's disembodied spirit could have carried the Ring back to Middle-earth.

Did I miss a meeting or something?
You missed Letter 211.
And yes, leaving Ring behind is by far the most reasonable inference from the published canon.
JRRT Wrote:Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! ...
He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most Numenoreans.
(I do not think Ar-Pharazon knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could.
In any case Ar-Pharazon was not in communication with them ...) ...
Though reduced [ in the Downfall] to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring ...
Mordomin Wrote:Yes, the statement that "...he took up again his great Ring..." seemed to strongly imply that he had, at some point, you know, put it down.
But giving that further thought, it becomes more clear that he would not have done so. Especially since Ar-Pharazon didn't have the foggiest idea what the Ring was.
If he did, he would have killed Sauron and taken the Ring for himself.

Well, I woulda, so I assume that 'Arpy' woulda.

It was just Sauron�s luck.
As it was, Westernesse had never heard of One in the first place.
JRRT mentioned correctly that Ar-Pharazon was not in present communication with Elves.
The Elves might have called Tar-Minastir for help without ever explaining the reason. Or Tar-Minastir might have heard of One orally, and never written it down.
Or ancient manuscript telling of Sauron, Elves and One Ring might be gathering dust in archives of Armenelos, unread for centuries.
Alternately, Arpy might greet Sauron with "Your Ring, please!". And on hearing "Uh-oh, I left it at home at Dark Tower..." respond:
"Fine, tell me where it is, and I�ll send for it. In the meantime, just in case, I�ll have you strip-searched."
Would strip-search of the captive live body of Sauron have uncovered One Ring?
Would strip-searching Gandalf at Orthanc have uncovered Ring of Fire?
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#65
Ar-Pharazon and his father before them, and the "King's Men" party around them, were hostile to the Eldar and considered them to be agents of the Valar they considered to be their enemies and the culprits denying them access to the Undying Lands, and the immortality they thought it would confer simply by virtue of being there. Whatever knowledge might have been handed down from the earlier Kings, and even from Tar-Palantir, was probably dismissed as discredited.
I imagine Tar-Palantir, who must have been treated as a pariah and fool by the Kings' Men who had "Arpy's" ear, in retrospect something of a Pharaoh Akhnaten sort of figure of ridicule and ostracism.

Given the foregoing, IMO it's understandable that Ar-Pharazon did not know or believe any handed-down knowledge about the Rings of Power.

Also, Sauron like Galadriel may have been able to hide his Ring while wearing it. Supplemetal writings by JRRT indicate the Numenoreans remained in awe of Sauron in person despite his defeat and show of surrender, and such expedients as "strip searching" were unthinkable.
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For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#66
Alvin Eriol Wrote:::Confusednip:::Also, Sauron like Galadriel may have been able to hide his Ring while wearing it. Supplemetal writings by JRRT indicate the Numenoreans remained in awe of Sauron in person despite his defeat and show of surrender, and such expedients as "strip searching" were unthinkable.

Further proof (if more were needed) that Sauron was dead ("mostly dead") when Isildur encountered him and cut the One Ring from his finger; Sauron, at that stage of the battle, could not conceal the Ring from Isildur's sight.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#67
Alvin Eriol Wrote:::Confusednip:::Also, Sauron like Galadriel may have been able to hide his Ring while wearing it. Supplemetal writings by JRRT indicate the Numenoreans remained in awe of Sauron in person despite his defeat and show of surrender, and such expedients as "strip searching" were unthinkable.

Further proof (if more were needed) that Sauron was dead ("mostly dead") when Isildur encountered him and cut the One Ring from his finger; Sauron, at that stage of the battle, could not conceal the Ring from Isildur's sight.

Sorry for the tangent. Carry on!
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#68
Mordomin Wrote:Further proof (if more were needed) that Sauron was dead ("mostly dead") when Isildur encountered him and cut the One Ring from his finger; Sauron, at that stage of the battle, could not conceal the Ring from Isildur's sight.

Interesting proposition. I think I've seen this point made before, or raised as a question. It makes sense that the Ring would be visible on Sauron's hand after he died. His will was disoriented and he could not focus.
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#69
Michael Wrote:Interesting proposition. I think I've seen this point made before, or raised as a question. It makes sense that the Ring would be visible on Sauron's hand after he died. His will was disoriented and he could not focus.
Since I unlearnt the idea that Isildur's striking of the Ring from Sauron's finger was the "killing blow" here on this site, then I would assume that the idea of Sauron's death and inability to conceal the Ring also came from posts that I have read here. Smile
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#70
(May 30th, 2018, 09:18 AM)Bacchus Wrote: Interesting question. Perhaps he wished to consult with Galadriel and Celeborn along the way. In fact, the most direct route would have been via Lorien and either Khazad Dum or the Caradhras pass, bypassing Gladden entirely.


This thread went off on a tangent but this would have been the quickest way back in terms of miles.  I am not sure how steep a climb the Redhorn Pass would have been and would it have posed an obstacle to his baggage ponies   I don't think so however.  Even if it was he could have gone through Khazad Dum.

As for Lorien was Galadriel even there at the time?   According to Tolkien's later writings she did not return there until after Amroth died in the Third Age.  Even if she had been there she would have only just started wielding the Ring of Adamant and surely the effects would not be the same as when the Fellowship  passed through an Age later.  I would say that the One Ring would not have desired to come close to Galadriel and this may have influenced him,  but there is nothing to indicate that anyone knew Galadriel even possessed one of the Three at that time.  In fact there is no evidence that Galadriel was even involved in the Last Alliance and the events at the end of the Second Age.
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#71
The Fellowship took Bill the pony into the Redhorn Pass, and didn’t release him until they decided to enter Moria. Thus it seems a safe assumption that the Pass was accessible for a baggage pony. Passable by a small group doesn’t necessarily mean passable by a large one (at least conveniently), but that’s the nature of the evidence we have.

It’s been far too long since I read the later Galadriel stuff, so I won’t speculate there.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#72
I always thought he just got lost since he didn’t have a map.
Don't insult the precious, my precious!:book:
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