Rangers Who Aren't Dunedain?
#1
We are told that the Rangers of the North were Dunedain of Arnor, �the last remnant in the North of the great people, the Men of the West.� When Halbarad found Aragorn in Rohan, the Grey Company consisted of thirty Dunedain Rangers, all of �our kindred� that could be summoned in haste. Presumably that wording implies and allows there may have been others left in the North, who could not readily be gathered because they were afield. It also IMO could sort-of suggest some who might have been left behind, to help guard the Angle and Eriador as they might, were not of Aragorn�s and Halbarad�s kin.

Considering the Rangers of Arnor as an elite corps rather than an ethnic group, is it possible that it could have included a few people not related to the House of Isildur, indeed perhaps not Dunedain at all? I believe it�s stated that not all soldiers of Arnor in the days of the Kings were Dunedain, by a long shot. I think the elite corps of Rangers may well have dated back to the Kings, who would have other forces and auxiliaries likely not entirely composed of Dunedain. There were of course the traditions that a company of Hobbit archers had marched to war for the King, and never returned.

In my noncanonical i.e. non-red Book derived translation of Elrond�s memoirs (i.e. fanfic!), a Ranger is introduced who is not of the House of Isildur, or even Dunedain. In fact, strictly speaking he�s not even a Man, but a Hobbit: Bilbo�s uncle Hildifons Took.

So here�s my question: Is a Ranger who is not Dunedain, much less descended from Elendil or Isildur, at all plausible? Could the Rangers as written of by JRRT have occasionally sworn in recruits they considered trusty and competent from other peoples, such as the race of Men of Bree, Hillmen? Perhaps even Druedain (who would make excellent Rangers and probably would be instructors!) or even Hobbits? Is that a possibility JRRT might have contemplated or allowed for?

(sort of like having Klingon officers in Starfleet, or Jedi from races not traditionally friendly with humans)

BTW, I see no reason the scope of this discussion could not apply to Rangers of Ithilien or other marches of Gondor also.
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#2
Good question, Kemo Sabe Then of course there's also good ole Ranger Smith, BooBoo. And for all the younger set, rangers are mighty in their "morphing". Later Kind Folks-Paul :ashamed:

yes, I did go there
Frontiers of any type, physical or mental are but a challenge to our breed. Nothing can stop th questing of man, not even man. If we will it, not only the wonders of space, but the very stars are ours
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#3
Yes, it is entirely plausible -- based on what we know about the Rangers from Tolkien's writings -- that they could have accepted someone from outside their own kind among them. There are a few examples of such cross-cultural warriors going back to the First Age.

Can you justify such a character based on anything Tolkien wrote? No. It would be entirely non-canonical. But it would be consistent with his own fiction.
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#4
Alvin Eriol Wrote:So here’s my question: Is a Ranger who is not Dunedain, much less descended from Elendil or Isildur, at all plausible? Could the Rangers as written of by JRRT have occasionally sworn in recruits they considered trusty and competent from other peoples, such as the race of Men of Bree, Hillmen? Perhaps even Druedain (who would make excellent Rangers and probably would be instructors!) or even Hobbits? Is that a possibility JRRT might have contemplated or allowed for?

(sort of like having Klingon officers in Starfleet, or Jedi from races not traditionally friendly with humans)<br>
<br>
BTW, I see no reason the scope of this discussion could not apply to Rangers of Ithilien or other marches of Gondor also.
It depends on what is meant by the term "Ranger". Does it mean only those Men of Numenor, whether in Arnor or Gondor? Perhaps. But does that mean that all Men of the Edain are automatically Rangers? Surely not; Beregond of the Tower Guard was no Ranger, yet he was just as surely a Man of Gondor, that is, of Numenorian blood.

Likewise, many non-Edain people took service with the Kings of Arnor and Gondor at various times, for example, the Shire archers that went to the aid of the King of Arnor (and did not return). Did that make them Rangers? No, IMO, it made them archer auxiliaries. Members of the Army? Sure. Rangers? Why would it?

Pippin became a member of the Guard of the Tower, and later a Knight of Gondor. Was he a Ranger? Perhaps by courtesy, but not by function, duty, or skill.

So, what makes one a Ranger? It seems to me that it is 1) that you are in the service of a leader of the Dunedain and 2) you possess a certain set of skills. I cannot see an argument that says that bloodline is a requisite.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#5
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#6
A Ranger force would have been useful for patrolling Cardolan and Rhudaur after they were destroyed in the wars. After 1409 and 1636 most of Eriador was deserted anyway so a Ranger force could have kept watched on the deserted lands to ensure that evil creatures did not sneak back in.

There is no canonical reference to such a force. Not even a casual thought in any of Tolkien's posthumously published writings, so far as I can recall. But it would be plausible.
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#7
Michael Wrote:A Ranger force would have been useful for patrolling Cardolan and Rhudaur after they were destroyed in the wars. After 1409 and 1636 most of Eriador was deserted anyway so a Ranger force could have kept watched on the deserted lands to ensure that evil creatures did not sneak back in.

There is no canonical reference to such a force. Not even a casual thought in any of Tolkien's posthumously published writings, so far a I can recall. But it would be plausible.
I agree. The northeast corner of Arnor, while suitable for farming and/or pasturage, was too vulnerable to raids from the goblins of the Misty Mountains and/or the Orcs of Mount Gundabad. So, even after the fall of the Witch-king of Angmar, it became a desolate land.

That is why the Wayhouse is so remarkable. But note that it was settled south and west of the Weather Hills. The town of Bree is also quite remarkable; they are a tough folk, a doughty combination of Men and Hobbits.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#8
Michael Wrote:A Ranger force would have been useful for patrolling Cardolan and Rhudaur after they were destroyed in the wars.

When were Hill-men of Rhudaur destroyed?
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#9
Thank you for your input
Jaak Wrote:Why? What function would it have had?
Doubtless King Arvedui had forces divided in several units. But what become of these? Some fell at Fornost or other forts of North Downs, some fled with the King to Ice Bay and sank to the last man there, and some deserted over Lune with King�s sons.
If an elite unit of "Rangers" existed under Arvedui, could it, because of its elite status, have accompanied the King on his flight to Ice Bay, and drowned there?
Jaak, good Q's

I imagine the Kings of Arthedain, esp. as Angmar arose and Rhudaur became aligned with it, would have needed elite very loyal corps, probably composed mainly of royal kinsmen, for a personal guard and for various tough or delicate missions for which great hosts and companies of ordinary men-at-arms were not suitable. Arthedain in its later days was beset with enemies all around except to the West, and a few friends of limited reliability to the South (Cardolan and Gondor), as well as of course Elrond.

It would seem likely the King would naturally be accompanied by his elite guard in his retreat and flight, and that they would share his fate.  However, his sons including the heir Ara***** were driven off before Arvedui & his guard was forced into the North to Forochel. Presumably the Dunedain with Ara***** and his own guard, along with his brothers and their families at that time regrouped near Rivendell and colonized the Angle, doubtless at Elrond's bidding. Those guards presumably formed the original core of the Rangers of Arnor. Doubtless any skills they may have lacked at that point were subsequently taught by the Elves of Elrond.

There’s another element worth considering, IMO. The Dunedain surely recalled and taught their children concerning the Edain of the First Age, and the heroism of such desperate guerilla bands as that of Barahir in Dorthonion, and of Turin, resisting the occupation and incursions of Morgoth as they may. I would imagine the first Rangers of Arnor probably invoked those traditions as models for their own organization and purpose going forward.

It was somewhere suggested IIRC that the Rangers of Ithilien may well have been originally trained, if not actually founded, by “Thorongil” during his sojourn in Gondor.
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#10
Silly me, I forgot that "*****" was such a vile obscenity! :laugh:

As little kids, egged on by the big kids, we'd gleefully shout "*****! *****!" until our mothers smacked us. Eru illumine us, that soap tasted awful!

When we grew older, we'd taunt each other saying "You're a *****!" and "*****-head!" Later still it was "***** you!" "***** yourself!" :mad:

Ah, those were the days. Perhaps one day I'll learn what's so bad about "*****!" :question:
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#11
I couldn't get into The Silmarilion way back when, so I have no idea what ***** is supposed to represent here. The suspense is killing me!
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#12
rkomar Wrote:I couldn't get into The Silmarilion way back when, so I have no idea what ***** is supposed to represent here. The suspense is killing me!

Heh, you could check out LotR App A, King-list of Arnor, to find the name of Arvedui's son & heir.

enn
aye
arr
tee
aitch
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For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#13
National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality? That's all I can make of those letters. I must be getting old, because I don't recognize obscenities anymore.
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#14
It would seem that significant empty lands appeared after the Plague. Arthedain attempted resettlement of Cardolan - foiled by barrow-wights.
How did Arthedain handle the empty lands from 17th to 20th century?
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#15
Jaak Wrote:When were Hill-men of Rhudaur destroyed?

Rhudaur ceased to exist after the war of 1409. Tolkien does not say when the hill-folk died or fled but they were gone by the time Aragorn took the Hobbits through because they saw the ruins of ancient towers near the Road.

The Elves of Rivendell and Lorien helped to push back the forces of Angmar after 1409. The Hobbits fled the Angle at that time. The Great Plague wiped out most of Eriador's mortal population in 1636. And the Long Winter of 2758-9 also wrought considerable devastation.

So while we cannot pinpoint the exact time of their demise, we do know that the hill-folk were no longer a significant threat after 1409.
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#16
Michael Wrote:Rhudaur ceased to exist after the war of 1409. Tolkien does not say when the hill-folk died or fled but they were gone by the time Aragorn took the Hobbits through because they saw the ruins of ancient towers near the Road.
Strider does say!
Strider Wrote:No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end.
Meaning that Rhudaur was occupied by evil people all the way till 1975.
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#17
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#18
No, the Dunedain that fled the Downfall of Numenor were on nine ships. Four went with Elendil Elf-friend, but three went with Isildur, and two with his brother Anarion.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#19
Jaak Wrote:Um, how does this follow?
The fugitives who founded Gondor were just 5 shiploads (and in Arnor, 4 shiploads).
They found an unspecified number of Dunedain already settled in Gondor - the city of Pelargir.
Unspecified, but certainly a minority. That�s the assumption underlying the invention of Westron in Pelargir. Had Pelargir been a settlement of majority of Dunedain, they could have gone on speaking pure Adunaic, as spoken in Westernesse, and taught it to the small numbers of immigrant natives.
The reason Westron was invented in Pelargir was that Pelargir was settled by a majority of non-Dunedain, for whom Westron was a second tongue.
So, obviously the children raised in Pelargir by non-Dunadan parents were speaking Westron (and not Adunaic) as mothertongue - but had no Dunadan ancestry. (Also, Dunedain are not reported to be hot on having mistresses and bastards).
Dunedain were minority even in the city of Pelargir - let alone the general countryside of Gondor.
How far were the 31st century Men of Gondor descended from Dunedain, how far from natives? Did explicit discrimination exist in 31st century?

The Numenoreans were originally composed of majority Marachians, whose native tongue became the Adunaic. A significant minority of primarily descendants of Beorians, who we are told in the Silmarillion had abandoned their old native tongue for Sindarin after accepting the protection of Finrod, settled mainly in the western and northwestern part of the island, i.e. around Andunie. Three millenia later, it appears that most Numenoreans resembled Marachians, spoke Adunaic, tended to colonize Middle Earth at Umbar and southwards, and tended to become King's Men (of whom in ME the Black Numenoreans later derived). By the time of Ar-Gimilzor (SA3102-77) and the "civil wars" and persecution of the Faithful, many of the Faithful fled to ME and settled mainly at Pelargir & on the north shore of the Bay of Belfalas. **added** There may have been a higher proportion of descndants of Beorians amont the Faithful, assuming they were predominately from the northwest of Numenor. ** There was already a Numenorean population along the shores generally since SA 1800, and going back even a millenium earlier at Lond Daer and the Gwathlo up to the forests above Tharbad, dating back to Tar-Aldarion's reign. Since many of the "native" Men were descended from ancestors of the Beorians and the Haladin (i.e. ancestors of Dunlendings and the builders of Dunharrow), early Westron was therefore probably influenced mostly by tongues related to the lost Beorian and Haladinic speech, as well as slightly by Sindarin.

Elendil's folk fleeing the Downfall probably spoke both high Adunaic and, privately, Sindarin (which was proscribed in Numenor by the later Kings) **added** and his folk of Andunie probably had a higher proportion of Beorians than other parts of Numenor. Elendil and his sons and nobles re-introduced the use of Sindarin again, as well as Quenya for ceremonial use. Around Pelargir and the major centers of Elendil's folk, Sindarin "ennobled" the Westron to its later forms popularized in Gondor and Arnor. Residents having no Dunadan ancestry themselves would have adopted it as it became the lingua franca.

For the reasons I just mentioned, the Numenorean colonists and the people of Elendil were distantly related to most of the 'natives' in NE coastal ME from common ancestors dating to the Elder Days, even the ancestors of the Dunlendings and folk of Dunharrow. In the 3rd Age as time went on doubtless "pure" descendants of those who came with Elendil tended to be proud and to look down on the other families, never mind those not related at all. By the run-up to the Kin-Strife (TA 1432-7) we see that many lords of Gondor of high blood disdained even the Northmen descended mainly from ancestors of the Marachians, whose distant kinship they acknowledged. They thought the heir sullied his line by marrying a princess of Rhovanion, the son of that marriage was because of his "impure" blood ineligible for the crown, and the succession therefore was open to other claimants such as Castamir.

It's not hard to imagine agents of Sauron encouraging this kind of bigotry and ethnic pride as a means of division and strife! IMO, in part because of the Kin-Strife and the shame of it, the tendency toward bigotry and pride might have been toned down, but IMO traces of ethnic identity still remain. The Dunedain of Arnor and and lords of Gondor seem to have thought of their kinship as a responsibility to lead and protect, moreso than a superior race.
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#20
In Arnor, Dunedain were traced in 15th...17th century.
In Rhudaur, Dunedain were few, and the rest of people were traceably non-Dunedain. Those few Dunedain served the evil lord of Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar.
It was only after 1409 that the remaining Dunedain of Rhudaur were slain or fled to Arthedain.
In Plague of 1636, most people of Cardolan died - most but not all. But for some reason, an end came to Dunedain of Cardolan. Why?
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