The Titanic Was Actually the Olympic
#1
They were sister ships and they were switched in an insurance fraud, and the sinking was criminal, not accidental. An outstanding documentary reveals the truth about the tragedy.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_d_GEy8lr0 from YouTube
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#2
I rather like the Unlucky Mummy theory myself. :tongue:
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#3
Didn't want to dedicate 50 minutes to this right now, but just by the description, that's a great story! I can't believe no one has jumped on that for a movie.
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#4
The the Unlucky Mummy theory has the same lack of credibility as the theory it was an accident. :tongue:
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#5
If true, that is horrible. All those innocent people who drown.
Don't insult the precious, my precious!:book:
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#6
I did watch this later on, and it's very entertaining. I recognized the style and pacing immediately, as I've watched countless UFO shows over the years. It never offers any real voice to the opposition, it omits evidence that doesn't serve it's purpose, and it never explores alternative explanations of any kind. I did quite a bit of searching on the Titanic and Olympic after watching this, and there's a significant amount of scholarly research that refutes these claims.

I'd have to say the simplest, most obvious problem is the fact that we're asked to accept that the thousands of people who worked on the Titanic every day in the shipyards came back one Monday morning and didn't notice their ship had been swapped. Or to believe that they were all coerced into silence. Certainly it was a different time and big companies could abuse their employees in ways they can't now, but the idea that thousands of Irishmen would be bullied into silence is absurd.
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#7
It sounds like that ''scholarly research'' is just as unscientific as that against UFOs. The ships were too similar for most of the workers to notice the difference, and the few that did notice, as the documentary states, were coerced into keeping silent.
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#8
I watched the documentary again, and I don't know where the figure of 15,000 workers comes from, but it has nothing to do with the switch, which used only a limited number of people--''some boys that will do the job for 200 pounds''. The ''Titanic'' was listing to port, which would be the case if it was the Olympic because of damage sustained in the collision with the Hawke, which is only 1 point of evidence of many.
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#9
Space Marshal Wrote:I watched the documentary again, and I don't know where the figure of 15,000 workers comes from, but it has nothing to do with the switch, which used only a limited number of people--''some boys that will do the job for 200 pounds''. The ''Titanic'' was listing to port, which would be the case if it was the Olympic because of damage sustained in the collision with the Hawke, which is only 1 point of evidence of many.
The 15,000 was from other reading I had done. I don't know, I wasn't there. A shipyard producing vessels of that size must have had thousands of workers.
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#10
I saw the 15,000 in a review on some site. It would involve the construction of the ships, which had nothing to do with the switch.

I would like to know your sources to see if there is really any contrary evidence. Sites and books that would contest the switch theory would be by the no-conspiracy cult, which obviously are not reliable. The only potentially contrary evidence I could find is that all the parts for the ships were stamped 400 for the Olympic and 410 for the Titanic. If this is true, the parts from the recovered wreck could be checked, if the numbers are still visible. This apparently was never done by the salvage teams.
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#11
''If true, that is horrible. All those innocent people who drown.''

Certainly is horrible.
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#12
Space Marshal Wrote:I would like to know your sources to see if there is really any contrary evidence. Sites and books that would contest the switch theory would be by the no-conspiracy cult, which obviously are not reliable.
The burden of proof lies with conspiracy theorists, not the other way around.

I just saw one on the "History Channel" about the Kensington Runestone. It's bad enough that they're pushing that the runestone is legitimate, now they're tying it to the
Knights Templar and the Holy Grail being in the United States. Completely absurd, but I'm sure it draws good numbers for them every time they air it. And people believe it, in spite of the fact that if they did even the tiniest amount of research, they'd find that an overwhelming majority of professionals who've examined the stone over the
years have concluded that it's a fraud.

Some of the sources I was reading over regarding the Titanic:
http://www.markchirnside.co.uk/pdfs/Cons...tation.pdf

Titanic or Olympic: Which Ship Sank? by Steve Hall & Bruce Beveridge (available on Amazon)


In a Titanic-related example, if you want to see how conspiracies beget conspiracies, I present the stupefying James Cameron Conspiracy Theory. The idea that actual people believe this defies comprehension. For one, it implies Cameron is related to one Dr. Donald Ewen Cameron, which a very superficial check reveals to be false. However, the fact that they share a name, and that Donald Ewen Cameron spent time in Canada and was later involved in CIA work (the infamous "mk ultra," apparently) is enough to begin a demented framework of conspiracy. In any case, James Cameron was involved with a couple of these questionable tv "documentaries," so perhaps it's only fair that these folks have latched on to him.

The lengthy Cameron Conspiracy piece ends --I kid you not-- as such:
Quote:On an end note, anyone who tries to debunk or dismiss this document, whether they are psychiatrists, government agents, skeptics, secret society members or just plain
ignoramuses who laugh at this, will forever prove the information true.

This is so profoundly irrational that you have to wonder about the mental state of the author. Oops! There I go, sounding like a psychiatrist.... And if you think the author is
some nut that enjoyed The X-Files a little too much, they're happy to oblige, ending the article with a picture of Cigarette Smoking Man. Seriously though, conspiracy
theories are one instance where the "slippery slope" argument is apt. You start off with "hey, that's odd," and next thing you know your entire sense of objective
reality goes out the window, and you believe the Columbia was shot down by aliens.
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#13
The burden of proof isn't a problem for many conspiracy theories as they are easliy proven, but burden of proof applies only to court cases, and for the Titanic there, of course, can be no court case since the alleged conspirators are deceased.

Chirnside apparently favourably talks about ''progressive'' rationalization, but rationalization assigns reason where it isn't and makes something bad look good. He doesn't address the testimony of Beasley and other survivors that said there was listing to port, which would occur if there was a switch because of the damage sustained by the Olympic from th e collision with the Hawke, and other evidence in the documentary. But it is serious essay and without the usual mindless mud-slinging so characteristic of orthodoxy. I concede he does make several good points which indicate reasonable doubt. A dogmatic skeptic would never be so flexible and open-minded as to make such a concession.

The idea that all conspiracy theories are false or somehow suspect is itself false, lacking in objective reality, and profoundly irrational, and inevitably leads to the idea that there are no conspiracies, which is patently false. All real conspiracies are first conspiracy theories in any police investigation and court proceedings where there is an accusation of conspiracy. And many conspiracy theories have become generally acknowlegded as real conspiracies, such as climate fraud and mass surveillance (which is in direct violation of the 4th Amendment). Also, the idea that if some conspiracy theories are false then they are all false is also itself false. Churnside himself says that no conspiracy theory is worth dismissing out of hand. Countless conspiracies are recognized even by the mainstream, and, in fact, they are so commonplace that it might be more likely there is one than not, in any given possible case.

The no-conspiarcy cult has also created the myth that the public has a fascination with conspiracy theories, when, in fact our society is a culture of denial. The only officially-unacknowledged conspiracy recognized by the majority is for the JFK assassination.

Jack Kennedy, on April 27, 1961, at the Waldorf-Astoria in NYC, in front of the Am. Nsppr. Pblshrs.' Assoc., in an address titled The President and the Press, said: ''The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.'' He also said, ''For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy...'' and he was talking about communism, which has now subverted our culture through political ''correctness, '' and which has placed a president in the White House. Kennedy opposed CIA criminality, the Mafia, and UFO secrecy, which is why he was assassinated. The no-conspiracy cult was created by the CIA shortly after.

Nowadays it is basically a crime to expose or oppose conspiracies, and the ones who have the most interest in denying conspiracies are, naturally, the criminals themselves, to protect child-kidnap rings and child abuse, political assassinations, drug cartels, the international banking cartel, subversive activities, the UFO cover-up, false flags, etc.

I already knew about Hall and Beveridge and the Introduction to their book shows them as contemptuous of conspiracy theories, and there is no significant counter-evidence in the Look Inside.

Btw, the Holy Grail theory is not a conspiracy theory.
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#14
Space Marshal Wrote:The idea that all conspiracy theories are false or somehow suspect is itself false, lacking in objective reality, and profoundly irrational, and inevitably leads to the idea that there
are no conspiracies, which is patently false.
I'd agree with everything in that quote. I'm not saying there are no conspiracies, I'm simply advising caution. I can't believe just anything because there are some inconsistencies
in the Titanic, or the JFK assassination, or because people have occasionally seen strange things in the sky. Every "crazy" conspiracy theory out there may be true. But I'm
going to have to see real proof.

Quote:The no-conspiarcy cult has also created the myth that the public has a fascination with conspiracy theories, when, in fact our society is a culture of denial.
Clearly there is a fascination, evidenced by all the conspiracy shows on TV. Furthermore, I'd say this fascination, the attitude, has been used as a powerful political tool by
some, generally those who have a stake in maintaining the status quo. I'll never understand how people can question and deny every shred of evidence presented to them
(and I'm talking in general here, not specifically about our Titanic discussion), but blindly accept the narrative coming from the sources that reinforce their opinions.
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#15
It's unfortunate you feel that way about UFOs and the JFK assassination, and also odd for a sci-fi fan. And there is nothing fascinating about conspiracy theories as they speak of very evil crimes.
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#16
As someone who has seen a UFO in real life I am not convinced by all the theories that try to explain them. I find most of them to be unrealistic. Based on the shape of what I saw and its rapid movement through the sky I could not be convinced by the usual skeptical "plausible explanations", either, as they don't match the facts. That is why it is UNidentified. We don't know what I and other people saw that day.

As a science fiction fan I am no more likely to believe that we're being visited by aliens from other planets than I am to believe that J.R.R. Tolkien really came into possession of an ancient book that described events ranging from 13,000 years ago to 6,000 years ago.

We have documented many unexplained things. We have many people trying to explain those things. Some explanations may be more convincing than others but we don't even know how many of these things are connected to each other or in what ways.

For now it is enough in my opinion to regard them as unexplained but not necessarily inexplicable.
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#17
I was always under the impression SF fans tended strongly to believe in the reality of the UFO phenomenon because it's in their cognitive range since in SF ETs and interstellar travel are taken for granted as real and made more believable and acceptable. It's something you would expect. But I decided to find a survey on the topic to verify it. I didn't find one, but I probably don't need to, as I found ''SF and UFOs'' at kevinrandle.blogspot.ca, which says you would expect SF fans to be sympathetic to the idea of alien visits but, although not hostile to it, they are skeptical; and a Russ M. at Futurismic said that he'd been to many SF conventions, and SF fans are even more hostile to the idea than the general public; and there were 2 other sites that said essentially the thing, so that's 4 out of 4. And the writers, e.g., Bova, Clarke, Azimov, Bradbury, Pohl, are skeptics, too. Talk about bizarre. So much for SF fans and writers being enlightened and progressive. Maybe this isn't a site I should be on.

Of course, not everything in sci-fi is real -- time travel, extra dimensions, space warp, and space tunnels aren't even possible, and parallel universes haven't been proven.

But UFOs are off topic, and, in any case, I won't debate things that have already been proven beyond any doubt, like some UFOs having an unconventional origin and the JFK assassination conspiracy.
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#18
I had written a reply, but reconsidered, as it was off topic. :bg:
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#19
Space Marshal Wrote:I was always under the impression SF fans tended strongly to believe in the reality of the UFO phenomenon because it's in their cognitive range since in
SF ETs and interstellar travel are taken for granted as real and made more believable and acceptable. It's something you would expect.

Aha - see that's the danger of depending on impressions, or generalizing. SF fans can be 6-year-old comic-book readers, or educated intellectuals, or everything in between. But ultimately science fiction is fiction,
and so one thing those fans have in common is an interest in fiction. Which is why there's a heavy crossover between fantasy and sci-fi, even though both are based on radically different "rules."

As a result, I think it's safe to say that a lot of fans enjoy fiction about UFO's - Close Encounters, for example, The X-Files, etc. And as a result they may even enjoy some of the actual documentaries on the topic, and
some of the speculative ones that are becoming more common on Discovery and Nat. Geo. and the History Channel these days. But, there's no higher level of IQ in sci-fi fans than there is in, say, Faulkner fans, but of course the
former will include children who aren't advanced enough to read Faulkner. But an English major who likes one and not the other may or may not have stronger cognitive skills than any other.



Quote:But I decided to find a survey on the topic to verify it. I didn't find one, but I probably don't need to, as I found ''SF and UFOs'' at kevinrandle.blogspot.ca, which says you would expect SF fans to be sympathetic
to the idea of alien visits but, although not hostile to it, they are skeptical; and a Russ M. at Futurismic said that he'd been to many SF conventions, and SF fans are even more hostile to the idea than the general public;
and there were 2 other sites that said essentially the thing, so that's 4 out of 4. And the writers, e.g., Bova, Clarke, Azimov, Bradbury, Pohl, are skeptics, too. Talk about bizarre. So much for
SF fans and writers being enlightened and progressive.

No, that's assuming that a) what random people write on their blogs has any value or accuracy, which it may or may not, and that b) that if accomplished, famous professional fiction writers have opinions on something, those
opinions could be assessed as not being "enlightened and progressive" just because someone disagrees with them. And that c) any one person has the authority or ability to make conclusions like that. I definitely haven't
authorized anyone to do that, and I'm pretty sure most of the other 7 billion people on the planet haven't either. Smile

Quote: Maybe this isn't a site I should be on.

Most of the discussion here is about fiction, with fans helpfully and supportively sharing news and viewpoints and accounts and summaries of things related to genre movies and tv shows. To a much lesser extent books, and then
history to an even smaller extent. No one claims to be a definitive authority on anything, and if they did, they would by definition be proving that they are not, by volunteering/posting it for free on the internet. :laugh:

Honestly, if you're looking for people to believe things you feel are proven truths, (JFK, UFO's, the Titanic, Einstein, Darwin, etc.) according what you believe is some authoritative and definitive source,
there are thousands of conspiracy theory websites out there, and just about every article, legitimate and otherwise, now has a "comments" section where people argue back and forth with each other over each other's posts, their
choice of vocabulary, etc. And, no matter how vigorously they strike their fingers onto their keyboards, how enthusiastically they mine their thesauruses to find words with extra syllables to use, and how assertively they declare they
have proven they are right... the remaining 99% of the population is unaware of their existence, and the 1% who lead the worlds of history, science, scholarship and academia move ahead, blissfully unaware of the turtle in the pond
claiming that he is actually king of it all. :crazy:

What I think you might enjoy is joining in some of the discussions on favorite shows, episodes, films, etc. with a special emphasis on finding ways to appreciate what other people think about them. :bg:
August  - Jack's Pack Fan # 1, Keeper of the List, 3-Time Speaker of the JoAT Fan Quote of the Week, and the only person ever to have Back 2 Back Jack and Cleo fan quotes !
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