Statue head at the cross-roads
#1
Hi,

In the chapter "journey to the cross-roads" Frodo , Sam and Gollum come across a statue of a king (Isildur?) at the cross-roads with a rough hewn stone in place of it's head.
I've had this idea for many years, that the rough hewn stone, could be a crude representation of Sauron, setup by the orcs as a kind of joke.
What do you think of that?
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#2
Interesting idea. In rereading the passage, I see there is mention of a red eye on the stone. I think that is exactly what the orcs intended (or what Tolkien intended the reader to infer).
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#3
Yes I think this may be one of the few occasions scattered in the books , where Sauron's appearance is hinted at (such as Golllum's remark about 4 fingers).

Does anyone know who the King is supposed to be , Anarion or Isildur?
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#4
It depends on how old the statue is I guess. If it dates back to late Second Age or early Third Age, it would be Isildur, since he ruled over Ithilien.

But it could have been a later statue, so any Gondorian king could be it.

BTW, when did the Second Age officially end? The Fall of Numenor, or the overthrow of Sauron?
:deadhorse:
"A Iluvatarinya! En na pelecco carinyesse!"
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head!" :worry:

http://www.yamara.com/axe/#Q1
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#5
Michael Wrote:Interesting idea. In rereading the passage, I see there is mention of a red eye on the stone. I think that is exactly what the orcs intended (or what Tolkien intended the reader to infer).
Except that, in "The Departure of Boromir" Aragorn says that
Quote:Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken.
It doesn't mention depictions specifically, but if he is so fussy about his name being used, than it seems to follow that he would not approve of images.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#6
On the other hand, Aragorn goes on to say
Quote:The orcs in the service of Barad-dur use the sign of the Red Eye.

So that statue could have been defaced/replaced by the orcs of Barad-dur.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#7
I think that the orcs could be rebellious sometimes (in small ways), if they could get away with it. So I think it is possible that they could use forbidden words or symbols on occasionally.
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#8
I agree. There are several examples of their fractuousness in TTT and RotK. Take your pick.

"fractuousness"? did I just make up a word? Hmm, well how about divisiveness?
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#9
I'd never really thought of that before with respect to the statue defacement. I just put it down as orcish vandalism and mockery. But, yeah, replacing the dead King's head with a rock on which the Great Eye was painted could be their way of "tagging" the territory, saying "Sauron rules here now."

I think Sauron forbade the use of the name "Sauron" because it was an Elvish cussword, not in any sense his proper name, if he had one. Alternate means of reference such as the Eye, or "Lugburz" were acceptable whe used respectfully. As Mordy admitted, the Eye was an officially sanctioned badge or device of Mordor.

(I always catch myself picturing the Eye as the CBS logo rendered in crimson!)
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#10
There is an Eye in a pyramid in each US Dollar note.... mwaahahahaha! Sauron sits in the Federal Reserve!
:deadhorse:
"A Iluvatarinya! En na pelecco carinyesse!"
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head!" :worry:

http://www.yamara.com/axe/#Q1
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#11
Alvin Eriol Wrote:(I always catch myself picturing the Eye as the CBS logo rendered in crimson!)
:::raspy voice, black and white image:::This Walter Cronkite, reporting from Mordor. The Enemy, as it is called in Western Lands, is in high spirits, despite its unexpected defeat at the Gates of Minas Tirith.

Sorry, I could resist. And now, back to the original thread, already in progress.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#12
I think it was the CBS eye, a vain attempt by the network to gain exclusive television rights to any future movie(really forward thinking, considering the vandalism was done late SA or early TA)
Oh Yes, Sauron(like a later Lord Voldemort) forbid the use of his name in his presence because he was under a terrible powerful diabolical curse. Mention his name in his presence and he is compelled to do the Hokey-Pokey. As this is very humiliating, he made a habbit of exterminating anyone even suspected of posessing knowlege of said curse. It is said that the last words Thrain heard in the dungeons of Dol Guldur were, 'Put your right foot in..."

Later Kind Folks--Paul:muahaha: :wicked:
Frontiers of any type, physical or mental are but a challenge to our breed. Nothing can stop th questing of man, not even man. If we will it, not only the wonders of space, but the very stars are ours
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#13
Paul Goode Wrote:I think it was the CBS eye, a vain attempt by the network to gain exclusive television rights to any future movie(really forward thinking, considering the vandalism was done late SA or early TA)...

And it was done by Mordor Orcs? What does that say about CBS? :lol:

Maybe the Eye in the Pyramid symbol stemmed from a very distorted ancient memory of Barad-Dur!

BTW, CE: The Second Age ended with the fall of Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance. The Age Designation Commission wanted to end the Second Age on an upbeat note! :party:
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#14
:::blowing a shrill whistle and wearing a British officer's uniform::: Stop this! STOP this!::Confusednapping riding crop up under his arm:::
Right then! This started out as a perfectly good sketch, er, thread, about people lopping heads off statues and defacing them, good clean fun in my opinion. But now it has gotten SILLY!
Cue the next thread, Mister Director, on my mark: Three, two....WAIT FOR IT!...aaaand Cue!
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#15
Just a question... when the Orcs drew the Eye, how complete was it? Did it have eyelashes.

And give the crude quality, would such acts not cause Sauron to raise an eyebrow? After all he has only one.
:deadhorse:
"A Iluvatarinya! En na pelecco carinyesse!"
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head!" :worry:

http://www.yamara.com/axe/#Q1
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#16
Coconut Ent Wrote:BTW, when did the Second Age officially end? The Fall of Numenor, or the overthrow of Sauron?
Overthrow of Sauron. It was roughly 100 years after the Downfall of Numenor.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#17
Coconut Ent Wrote:Just a question... when the Orcs drew the Eye, how complete was it? Did it have eyelashes.
I don't think that it had any art to it. It was about on the level of the Goths knocking the noses off of Roman statues.
Coconut Ent Wrote:And give the crude quality, would such acts not cause Sauron to raise an eyebrow? After all he has only one.
As far as Eye, er, I know, the One Eye has no brow. So he could not raise or lower it.

The lack of a brow has been a matter of much dispute between the Tolkien Estate and Visine® (a Johnson & Johnson company). The dispute has to do with, in layman's terms, whether Visine® can use the image of a single Red Eye in their advertisements without infringing upon the rights of Tolkien and his heirs. Visine® has (obviously) had a temporary injunction in its favor in the United States, and so can run their ads. But so far as I know, the matter has not been decided.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#18
Just asking - has anyone heard from RobRoy since my latest fit of Monty Pythonism, above? He's just as vulnerable to it as I am, but since he is an administrator, he feels that it is his duty to keep it in. Which only makes it worse when scalawags like me let loose with it. Poor, good-hearted fellow.
Dinsdale! Dinsdale! Oh dear! Has anyone seen my hedgehog?
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#19
Regarding who the king might have been, my guess is Elendil. I cannot think of any texts that explain further, however. I can only find one terse mention of the headless statue in The War of the Ring.
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#20
I don't have any concrete reason to dispute this, but Isildur is another possibility, given that he ruled Ithilien.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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