Fantasy vs science
#21
Note that Paul, & the other sinners in the early Church were repented. They had turned away from their sins & had sought forgiveness. They had sinned, but they were not in a state of deliberate unrepented sinfulness. Much of the controversy in the churches now have to do with ordaining and elevating persons who continue to engage in & advocate acts & ideas allegedly contrary to Scripture, as well as contrary to most congregants' understanding of what is sinful .

Can Paul fairly be said to be a murderer, at least in the strict sense? He carried out his antiChristian vendetta under color of law, so far as I can tell from his own account & that of Luke in Acts.
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#22
Alvin Eriol Wrote:Note that Paul, & the other sinners in the early Church were repented. They had turned away from their sins & had sought forgiveness. They had sinned, but they were not in a state of deliberate unrepented sinfulness. Much of the controversy in the churches now have to do with ordaining and elevating persons who continue to engage in & advocate acts & ideas allegedly contrary to Scripture, as well as contrary to most congregants' understanding of what is sinful .

Can Paul fairly be said to be a murderer, at least in the strict sense? He carried out his antiChristian vendetta under color of law, so far as I can tell from his own account & that of Luke in Acts.
Killing is not murder if it is done in accordance with the law. Saruman sought that defense, but was well answered by Theoden
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#23
Attalus Wrote:Killing is not murder if it is done in accordance with the law.


I disagree.

The law is mutable, and often bad. Most genocide has taken place under the aegis of some kind of official, legal justification.

The Final Solution was institutionalized murder, but I doubt it broke any of the laws of the Third Reich.

Killing any individual simply based on group membership, be it Christians under Roman rule, Jews under the thumb of Hitler, Armenians under Turkish rule or Cherokee forced to walk the trail of tears, is pretty much murder, in my opinion.

I can't conceive of a benevolent God who would defend any of those killings because they were "legal."

Whatever you do to the least of my people...
Wrestling Darwin on a daily basis.

"Question boldly even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, He must more approve of the homage of reason than that of a blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson
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#24
Quote:Dictionary.com: Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
True it goes on to say, in the fifth definition, that it is "to slay cruelly or barbarously." That is too loose, for me. The servants of the Nazi German state did kill the victims of the Final Solution, and they committed "Crimes Against Humanity," as it was termed at Nuremburg, but they were not accused of, and were not hanged for, murder.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#25
Attalus Wrote:The servants of the Nazi German state did kill the victims of the Final Solution, and they committed "Crimes Against Humanity," as it was termed at Nuremburg, but they were not accused of, and were not hanged for, murder.


I think few would quibble with the statement that Nazi Germany murdered six million Jews. Maybe some would hesitate to call battlefield deaths "murder," but systematically rounding up the undesirables and executing them for no crime but their ancestry is murder in most people's books.

In general, I find the hair splitting over "killing" vs "murder" to be a bit self serving. It usually comes down to killing by people we don't like is murder, but killing we sanction is righteous, and worthy of seventy seven virgins.

Call a spade a spade. Killing your fellow humans is bad. There are times when not killing is worse, but it's still not a good thing. One needs to kill only when it's the second worst option. Ganking Christians because they belong to an "illegal" religion is never a good, justified killing, and trying to find a way to not call it murder so it doesn't break a commandment because we'd like to exonerate Paul is the worst kind of barrack room lawyering.

For that matter, how do "kill" and "murder" translate to Hebrew, and what word was on the original tablet, I wonder. Using English linguistic convention to seek loopholes in a document originally written in Hebrew seems pretty weak to me as well.

Killing is the only Commandment that people try to do a cheap linguistic end run around, it seems. There are times when stealing is necessary, like when you are starving and have no option, but nobody differentiates between "stealing" and "taking."
Wrestling Darwin on a daily basis.

"Question boldly even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, He must more approve of the homage of reason than that of a blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson
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#26
Here you go, MoQM : http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...ongs=H7523

There's the Hebrew word and its meanings. It should be THOU SHALT NOT MURDER.

Hope this helps.
inked
"Aslan is not a tame lion. Safe?
No, he's not safe, but he's good."
CSL/LWW
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#27
Especially helpful if you realise that the ancient Hebrews did kill quite a lot. Some times even the Judges told them to, and punished them when they didn't, see the case of Agag. Even the saintly David splattered the walls with the blood of women and children.

Plus, I resent the implication that I sympathise with the Nazis one iota. They actually did murder, quite a bit, especially the Gestapo. But the Final Solution was not murder in the strict sens, only in the loose one that you seem to endorse, killing people when we, personally, don't want them to. That is not a moral judgement, but a sentimental one.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#28
Note that I was being strictly legalistic about applying "murder" to Saul of Tarsus' activities. "Murder" is a legal term with precise meanings and standards of proof. I notice that whatever else happened to him, it was never stated in so many words that any authority sought to prosecute him in connection with the deaths of Christians in which he was involved, pre-conversion. Ergo, they evidently either accepted the persecutions as legit, or that Saul was not directly enough involved, i.e. he watched cloaks while others threw the stones. I don't of course deny (neither did he, or Luke) that he was involved in causing the deaths & other injury & disposession to persons for questionable sectarian reasons. Indications are nonetheless that "murder" in the strict legal sense did not apply.

Paul's problems post-conversion seem to have arisen from his erstwhile compatriots for the same motivations that he himself had formerly persecuted Christians. He also ended up being brought before Emperor Nero, who had already hit on the idea of making Christians scapegoats for the problems of the empire.

I do not of course condone in any way mass killings for political/ideological reasons by a state or similar entity under color of law. The remaining Nazis were prosecuted because they were defeated in war and lost the protection of their state. Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, & countless others died in their beds because they were never brought to justice similarly.

I might add that while the Bible stresses obedience to the authorities as ordained by God, those authorities will themselves in their turn eventually answer for their stewardship.
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For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#29
Mike of Quantum Muse Wrote:The Final Solution was institutionalized murder, but I doubt it broke any of the laws of the Third Reich.

I'm not sure about that. I'm sure if there was a law saying that killing Jews was legal, the history documentaries would be tellung us more about it.

However, I guess that the justice system and supreme courts was effectively controlled by government so it would have been highly unlikley that a court injunction would ever have told the Nazis to stop the killings. That's not strictly the same as saying it was legal though. For the victims, of course, it didn't make much difference.
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#30
The Wannsee Protocol made it governmental policy that all Jews were to be removed form German soil, and, of course, the Nuremberg Decrees had stripped them of all their civil rights. The Gestapo took matters one step further and simply killed them, indentifying them as "security risks" and a drain on the Reich's resources.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#31
I never accused anyone here of Nazi sympathies.

I just take issue with the hairsplitting of when killing the innocent is "murder" and when it's "making some elbow room."

If we go by the definition that murder is unlawful killing, then most genocide, conducted under the veneer of legality is not murder. And, to the chagrin of lots of Christian bumper sticker salesmen, neither is abortion.

As a very very lapsed Catholic, who learned the fine points of killing on the taxpayers' dime, I think killing should always be seen as a last resort, and a bad alternative. Sometimes there are no better ones.

I don't try to brand "killing people I like" as murder. Let's stay on the Third Reich, since this is the internet, after all. The German soldiers defending Omaha Beach did a fair amount of killing that I don't like, but it was understandable, killing enemy soldiers bearing arms in time of war. That is not unjustified. German soldiers who killed American POWs in the Ardens engaged in unjustified killing, but understandable, given the stresses of combat and the logistics of handling prisoners. German soldiers who executed unarmed civillians regardless of age or sex on the basis of ethnicity committed an unpardonable attrocity.

Now, legally, the only questionable case is the shooting of POWs, but I think that's a lesser crime than the systematic genocide of Jews, Russians, Homosexuals, Gypsies, etc.
Wrestling Darwin on a daily basis.

"Question boldly even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, He must more approve of the homage of reason than that of a blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson
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