sons of elrond
#1
Shouldn't have his son tried to go back for their sister?The book says the elves leave middle earth forever never to return. If Elrond knew the fate of his daughter in the movie wouldn't he have try to return for his daughter?
Don't insult the precious, my precious!:book:
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#2
Arwen Evenstar gave up her claim to immortality-within-Arda consciously to share in Aragorn's mortality, so she would not have been received by those over Sea. It was not a mere matter of transporting her body (hroa) but some undefined change to her fea. No one knows whether Elladan and Elrohir ever left Middle-earth at all.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#3
Attalus Wrote:No one knows whether Elladan and Elrohir ever left Middle-earth at all.
Which is always very interesting to me. I like the open question. I think we can assume, simply because there is nothing said about it, that they did actually leave, and yet not knowing, imo, is just great in this case.
[COLOR="Teal"]We are not the same persons this year as last; nor are those we love.
It is a happy chance if we, changing, continue to love as a changed person. [/COLOR]

[SIZE="1"]-W. Somerset Maugham[/SIZE]
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#4
I, too, have always assumed that they left, eventually, along with Celeborn. Though, he was just stubborn enough to stay.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#5
My impression was that the Sons of Elrond stayed in Middle-earth until Aragorn died. Then they departed, on the last ship to sail from Lindon.

I could be wrong. It would hardly be the first time.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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#6
I seem to recall something in the Appendices that said that the brothers left with Celeborn (or were thought to perhaps). I'll take a look later.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#7
Also, the time of the Elves had passed. Their power was spent and they were in their Autumn, while Men were entering their Spring, or Summer. I forget how warm it was. But anyhow, the Elves were leaving Middle Earth forever, and while Elrond and his family may have missed Arwen, there was no other reason to return.

Except for a sequel. In which case, I need Don Pardo to do some voice over work!
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#8
Ok, I'm not seeing it right now. There is a comment in "a Part of the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn" that comments that Celeborn is gone from Lothlorien when Arwen returns there following Aragorn's death, but I'm not seeing anything about the brothers. I'll keep poking about assuming my wife lets me :whip: (kids are gone this week, so don't hold your breath for a couple of days :balloons:
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#9
Yeah, I remember that part, but it doesn't really state that he left Middle-earth, though I feel he would see reason, at last. After all, he was Celeborn the Wise.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#10
I know i've read something about this. I suspect it was in UT or the Sil.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#11
I was of the impression that after Galadriel & Elrond departed, Celeborn went to live at Rivendell w/ his grandsons for a time. Thus Lorien diminished by the time Arwen decided to return there to die, tho one would think a few Silvans would have remained. Maybe they did, & they tried to comfort her, then buried her.

IIRC it was stated that the date of Celeborn's own departure over Sea was not known, but when he did, there was no other remaining memory of the Elder Days in Middle-Earth. Thus Cirdan would have left by then also.

The choice & fate of Elrond's sons was not stated, but surely they had to either follow their pa fairly soon, or age & die. Why did they hang around? Did they enjoy Orc-hunting that much? Their sister was not completely sold on the "gift of Men" we learn, so surely they didn't desire to die & leave the world? Presumably they didn't have Arwen's reasons to stay; I see no sign they met some hot mortal babes to jump the broom with. If they were thinking about staying, why was nothing said of the matter? Why did Elrond fret over Arwen's choice, but seemingly never gave a thought to the possibility his sons might not join him in the West?

(CTTOI, what does that statement about the "last living memory" of the Elder Days mean for the Ents? Or for Tom Bombadil?)
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#12
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#13
I have tried, for many years, and have never found anything beyond what has been posted. :question:
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#14
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#15
The passage I was remembering turns out to be from our favorite source of passages we remember but can't place: the Prologue, in this case at the very tail end.

Quote:It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell [to compile the Tale of Years], which he visited more than once. There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.

So it is not actually known when Celeborn did so, and it's implied Cirdan was gone by that point, or left with him. Added: In any event, the text seems to assert that Celeborn did in fact depart into the West, even if it can't say when.

Also any curse-free versions of Mordomin prior to 2.0 who hadn't perished instead also would have taken ship by that time, since he also remembered the Elder Days. Wink
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#16
What has always bothered me is this lack of specificity. JRRT seemed to do this when he wanted to imply some mystery, and he certainly succeded in this case.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#17
It seems implied Celeborn had departed by the time Findegil got hold of the Red Book & compiled his Authorized Edition, since that information presumably made it in by the 'deadline.'
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#18
Thinking about it broadly, I very much doubt that JRRT meant to imply that Celeborn and the sons of Elrond remained past the sailing of the Last Ship and became one of those Unhoused Elves that he regarded (or wanted us to regard) with such dread and horror.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#19
They might have stayed till they Faded, which was not horrible per se but rather sad. They wouldn't be Unhoused unless they were slain & then refused to report to Mandos.
Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway
For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to...
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#20
My recollection is that Arwen laid herself down on Cerin Amroth, the mound on which she and Aragorn had plighted their trough. And there she died.

Or rather, there her spirit fled her body. I don't recall any talk of a 'burial'.

I do recall mention on this site the general idea that burial was not usual for Elves, because of the way that their bodies decayed once the spirit had left them.
"Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion
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