Sith or Jedi?
#1
I just wanted to know what all your views are on the Sith and the Jedi. whos stronger, whos better, etc.

personally, i think the Sith are much much stronger than the Jedi. The Jedi know this, because they are in great fear when they discover the Sith are around again. The Jedi hold back in combat, they try to incapacitate, the Sith execute all their powers and go all out on someone with one goal. to kill. a very valuable skill. The sith also have much stronger force connections. the Jedi have force push. the sith? well they have force lightning.

:warrior:
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#2
Well, this is fun.

To start, let's quote Master Yoda when Luke asked him if the Dark Side was stronger. His response was quite emphatic, "No, no, no. Quicker. Easier. More seductive." Granted, Yoda is a biased in this regard. He clearly is a disciple of the Light Side of the Force, and a Jedi Master to boot, generally considered one of, if not the, greatest Jedi to have ever ignited a light saber, so we probably ought to turn elsewhere in seeking a more balanced perspective.

Knowing that the race is not always won by the swift, nor does the battle always go to the strong is of some help. Jedi certainly have numbers, while we're told that there are always and only two Sith, a master and an apprentice. Thus, while Sith may be of equal or greater ability, working to kill their opponent, rather than defeat them, this is only helpful in a one-on-one situation. Consider in The Phantom Menace when Darth Maul confronts both Qui-gon and Obi-wan. Despite all his agression, hatred, and anger, in the end he could not take both Jedi.

Of course, skill and cunning should also be measured here. In this, we can see that the Sith have something of an advantage. Forced to the shadows, they work against the Jedi through strategem, rather than out and out strength of arms. Their political manipulations were impressive, to say the least, and this could be attributed to their mastery of the Dark Side. Initially, and for some thirty years (of what we watched), the Sith called the tune and the Jedi danced to it. But for longevity along these lines, the Sith ultimately failed. The Jedi had been in power for generations, and the Sith had been, up until Palpatine's machinations, utterly impotent. It was the Jedi in Luke, and the Jedi in Vader/Anakin that ultimately won out over the Sith in Palpatine.

Over all, counting bean against bean, it seems that the two are evenly matched depending on which Jedi and which Sith you select. On any given Sunday, one could out-wit, out-fight or out-manuever the other.

For my money, over the long run, I would take Jedi strength over Sith strength and give odds.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#3
I had the impression that the Jedi were all about discipline. Their art of Force manipulation was intrinsically bound up with their ethic of humility, personal asceticism, and total self-mastery. This discipline inhibited the Jedi from plotting, ambition, and emotional extremes. The Sith Lords, OTOH, taught that extreme passions and murderous rages were empowering & keys to releasing the potential of the Force.

A Jedi carefully considers the consequences of his/her actions for others. A Sithlord considers nothing except his/her own desires, expediency, and obedience of apprentice to Master. Therefore in a facile sense the Sithlords might seem stronger as they have the advantage of the intiative (especially when as in the prequels they operate and plot covertly) and lack of scruple in their use of Force. I don't think once the rumble gets underway Jedi are necessarily inherently weaker in combat. The Jedi would presumably have better control. Anakin Skywalker took out Darth Maul, but he had slipped his self-discipline in grief for Qui Gong Jin, and fought like a Sith. Mace Windu, after all, who was apparently the Jedi military commander and champion of his time, would have taken out Palapatine/Darth Sideous himself mano-a-mano, if Anakin hadn't betrayed him.
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#4
Alvin, I'm glad you've responded to this question. Yours is a very well-reasoned look at the concepts.

Alvin Eriol Wrote:Anakin Skywalker took out Darth Maul, but he had slipped his self-discipline in grief for Qui Gong Jin, and fought like a Sith.

I know that you will catch this later, but it was Obi-wan, not Anakin who defeated Darth Maul. I was under the impression, however, that Obi-wan maintained his calm and asserted his Jedi training to defeat Maul, not that he succumbed to his emotions out of grief. Of course, I haven't read the books versions, which likely explain this fully and would be the best canonical resource to answer this question.

Quote:Mace Windu, after all, who was apparently the Jedi military commander and champion of his time, would have taken out Palapatine/Darth Sideous himself mano-a-mano, if Anakin hadn't betrayed him.

Wasn't there discussion regarding just how far in jeopardy Palpatine was when confronting Mace Windu? I don't know if there was a resolution, but the gist was that Palpatine was not nearly as defeated as it appeared, and only used that as the final straw to turn Anakin.

In any case, this confrontation is a good example of the strength of the Sith versus that of the Jedi. In this case, the plotting and subterfuge, along with the traitorous act of Anakin, shows the power of the Sith over the Jedi. Mace never considered that Anakin might turn against him at a crucial moment, whereas (regardless of anyone's stance on Palpatine's precariousness) this is exactly what a Sith might depend on and use to gain the advantage.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#5
Alvin and Robroy, you have very valid points. But remember Alvin, although Darth Maul could not kill both jedi, Robroy was correct when he said ( i presume ) that when Obi-wan killed maul, it was out of grief and passion and hatred toward one who killed his mentor and friend. another reason jedi should not become attatched. Maul had obi wan. But Obi wan did something maul did not expect, he lashed out in anger and passion, a sith move. therefore, the sith was only killed by Sith powers, where the jedi powers had failed.
also, it could have been a lack of skill on mauls part. take anakins turn to the dark side, he only needed a legion of soldiers to wipe the jedi temple clean of the jedi. while it can be argued that most of the masters were away, still, one Sith and some soldiers to kill an entire populace of jedi? that my friends is strong. if one jedi master with a legion of soldiers went into a building full of sith, (even though this is impossible as of roughly 3000 YBY) the jedi would be killed.
:warrior: :boar:
---Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design---
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#6
MasteroftheDarkSide Wrote:Alvin and Robroy, you have very valid points. But remember Alvin, although Darth Maul could not kill both jedi, Robroy was correct when he said ( i presume ) that when Obi-wan killed maul, it was out of grief and passion and hatred toward one who killed his mentor and friend. another reason jedi should not become attatched.

Sorry, no. Rather, my point was that in weighing strength, the Sith are limited in numbers, while the Jedi are not, and that in a contest of numbers, the Jedi win hands down. As I stated in my response to Alvin above, I am uncertain the exact circumstances under which Obi-wan defeated Darth Maul.

On the other hand, if we were to agree that Obi-wan tapped into the Dark Side to defeat Maul, this would show the relative strength and flexibility of the Jedi. That they could, at times, slip from their narrow path, and defeat a Sith at their own game, but still remain Jedi shows a strength that the Sith simply don't have. The Sith rely completely on the use of anger, agression and hatred, while the Jedi's path is one of control. A Sith could not assume a stance of control without ever having trained to gain such control.

In such a case, there is no contest: Jedi are stronger than Sith.

Quote:while it can be argued that most of the masters were away, still, one Sith and some soldiers to kill an entire populace of jedi? that my friends is strong.

I was under the impression that none of the Jedi knights or masters were present when Anakin stormed the temple, or that any that were present were taken, mostly, unawares by Anakin who was heralded as one of the strongest Force users alive. On the other hand, as I recall, Obi-wan managed to infiltrate the captured temple, proceed to its very heart and escape unharmed.

Quote:if one jedi master with a legion of soldiers went into a building full of sith, (even though this is impossible as of roughly 3000 YBY) the jedi would be killed.

I'm afraid this is pure speculation with no way to be proven, or even argued, one way or the other. There were very specific circumstances that occured when Anakin stormed and massacred the Jedi Temple.

On the other hand, I've always found the portrayal of the execution of Order 66, and the murder of the Jedi by the clone troops to be rather weak. By that I mean that most of the Jedi were taken completely or almost completely unawares, and put up little to no fight at all. That seems rather a contradiction to the very nature of the alertness and abilities of the Jedi knight, not to mention a master. I understand that there were more than a few Jedi who escaped Order 66, but none of those escapes were shown. A rather poor choice on Lucas' part IMNSHO.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#7
oh very well, fair enough.
good discussion guys!
maybe we can see a sith/jedi movie someday to see what hollywood thinks might happen but until then
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Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
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#8
MasteroftheDarkSide Wrote:oh very well, fair enough.
good discussion guys!
maybe we can see a sith/jedi movie someday to see what hollywood thinks might happen but until then

Didn't the Extended Universe novels take on something like this with Luke and/or some other force user? Mara Jade? Treading both sides of the Force?
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#9
Just picking up on the Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul contest. The way I remember it was that after Qui-Gon was killed, Obi-Wan became very agressive and certainly took the fight to Darth Maul. However, if you remember all his agression managed to get him was a lost lightsabre and hanging by his fingertips above a seemingly bottomless pit.

In the end it wasn't tapping into the dark side that defeated Maul but the fact that he was stupid enough to just stand there and watch as Obi-Wan jumped over his head, instead of chopping his legs off as he did so, like Obi-Wan did to Anakin years later.
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#10
Luke ended up marrying Mara Jade. She was Darth Vaders secret apprentice but she turned back to the light because of Luke. LOSER?

Wipe them out...ALL of them.
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#11
RobRoy Wrote:Didn't the Extended Universe novels take on something like this with Luke and/or some other force user? Mara Jade? Treading both sides of the Force?

I wouldn't say that but more of Luke and his Jedi Knights allowed love, attachments and marriage more and it wasn't as strict as the old order where jedi would be taken away from their parents and stuff. The Dark Side was still not encouraged or praticed but some of the strictness was taken away.

There's not much more I can add to this subject as there are some well said points and discussions. Sorry I missed the earlier discussion.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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