Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Michael's Take (Spoilers)

[shadowfax]

[color=teal]I don't think it had much of an opportunity to defend itself, because of the manner in which it was destroyed. The others first had to be opened, and then the soul piece destroyed; the Fiendfyre took out the diadem and the soul piece at once.

^

Dumbledore would have known that Fiendfyre can destroy Horcruxes and he should have used it on the ring rather than use the sword and so risk it backfiring on him (which it did). A nice remotely controlled outbreak of Fiendfyre in a safe and remote location. What more do you need?

[RobRoy]

^

Dumbledore would have known that Fiendfyre can destroy Horcruxes and he should have used it on the ring rather than use the sword and so risk it backfiring on him (which it did). A nice remotely controlled outbreak of Fiendfyre in a safe and remote location. What more do you need?

I was under the impression that it wasn't the destruction with the sword that caused the curse from the ring. It was Dumbledore trying to use the ring that released the curse. I believe he says as much.

Fiendfyre, according to Hermione, is incredibly difficult to control. Dumbledore likely could have handled it, but how easily is hard to say. I get the impression that the fiendfyre conjured in the Room of Requirement was only contained because of the nature of the room. Otherwise, it would have continued to spread.

[GamgeeFest]

The peice of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry.

So then the Elder Wand turned Voldemort's curse back on himself? Will have to reread that section again.

[Dixie]

So then the Elder Wand turned Voldemort's curse back on himself? Will have to reread that section again.

You would think that from where it said that the wand wouldn't kill its master. The impression I had was that it met the Expellarmus spell and bounced back. But if that were true, wouldn't Harry's spell have bounced back on him also? Instead, since the Elder Wand flys from Voldemort's hand, it sort of appears that Harry's spell connected with Voldemort though it met Voldemort's spell. Of course, the wand that Harry was working with, worked well for him since he had won it, and the Elder wand didn't work very well at all for Voldemort, so it's just possible that the spell Harry cast was more powerful than the one Voldemort cast and it did not only repel Voldemort's spell but push on through to disarm him.

But then, it's also possible that the Elder Wand turned Voldemort's curse back on him. Either way, Voldemort is dead.

Okay - there's my ramble for this morning. :laugh: Hate it when I have to think before I've finished my first cup of coffee.

[Arcadia]

I wonder if V's having so much of his soul already destroyed made a difference in his defeat- was this indicated or said? I need to read the book again.

[RobRoy]

So then the Elder Wand turned Voldemort's curse back on himself? Will have to reread that section again.

I wasn't certain, so I pulled the book:

"Harry heard the high voice shriek as he too yelled his best hope to the heavens, pointing Draco's wand:
"Avada Kedavra!"
"Expelliarmus!"

From this it would seem that Harry heard Voldemort's curse first, which would indicate whose spell is whose in that order, but this isn't conclusive. Following the curse and jinx, "golden flames" erupted, as they had at the begining of the book when Harry was escaping Privet Drive. But here's the telling part:

"Harry saw Voldemort's green jet meet his own spell, saw the Elder Wand fly high, dark against the sunrise, spinning across the enchanted ceiling like the head of Nagini, spinning through the air toward the master it would not kill, who had come to take full possession of it at last . . . Voldemort was dead, killed by how own rebounding curse . . ." [emphasis added]

Voldemort's shattered soul, which was unstable to begin with, probably didn't help matters any, but it seems that wand lore played a huge role in this final confrontation.

[Arcadia]

Thanks, RR. That's the way I remembered it, that V had cast a killing spell, but our hero, Harry, cast a remove wand spell.

[RobRoy]

Thanks, RR. That's the way I remembered it, that V had cast a killing spell, but our hero, Harry, cast a remove wand spell.

But quick question, Harry did cast the killing spell at one point, right? Not in the duel with Voldemort, but he did cast it prior to that, yes?

I seem to recall being shocked that Harry would cast that. But then there were other "Unforgivable Curses" cast by heros. Does the "Unforgivable" title fall when it's war?

[Niphredil]

[Arcadia]

What does "Unforgiveable" mean? Unforgiveable by the MOM? - surely they'd forgive in such dire cases. Unforgiveable morally?

[RobRoy]

What does "Unforgiveable" mean? Unforgiveable by the MOM? - surely they'd forgive in such dire cases. Unforgiveable morally?

I think Hermione stated that they were called Unforgiveable because anyone using them, outside of Ministry permission, was "unforgivable" by the wizarding world and would carry a life sentence in Azkaban.

[GamgeeFest]

Thanks, RR, that clears it up. Those last few chapters are kind of a blur. I'll have to take more time next time through. :bg:

If Harry ever attempted the AK curse, it would have been in OotP, but I can't recall now if he does or not. He definetly uses the Cruciatus curse against Bellatrix and she tells him he has to mean it.

[GamgeeFest]

Just started re-reading the book and think I might possibly have an answer to Snape being in Dumbledore's office before he's appointed Head Master of Hogwarts: the Muggle Studies professor. Snape could have used Polyjuice potion to imitate her to get into Hogwarts as soon as she was captured (and before news of her disappearance spread), had the convo w/ DD, then used some more polyjuice potion to change back into her to get out of Hogwarts. Now, what excuse would he give for her being there when she's supposed to be on vacation? You got me. Maybe she forgot something in her office.

As for the source that he and Voldie discussed earlier: I would think that would be Mundugus Fletcher. Makes sense. DD did ask him to tell Mundugus about the 7 Harrys (that most magical number again) and so it would have been easy enough for Snape to then tell Voldie that he had spoken to Mundugus (leaving out the 7 Harrys part, of course) to get the true date. A member of the Order, and indeed one of the Harry Removal Team, would be a much better source than anyone else.

[RobRoy]

As for the source that he and Voldie discussed earlier: I would think that would be Mundugus Fletcher. Makes sense. DD did ask him to tell Mundugus about the 7 Harrys (that most magical number again) and so it would have been easy enough for Snape to then tell Voldie that he had spoken to Mundugus (leaving out the 7 Harrys part, of course) to get the true date. A member of the Order, and indeed one of the Harry Removal Team, would be a much better source than anyone else.

Wasn't this revealed in Snape's flashback sequence? It wasn't stated, but it was fairly clear that Snape used Mundungus, correct?

[GamgeeFest]

It was to me, but others were questioning who the source was.

[RobRoy]

It was to me, but others were questioning who the source was.

Oh, I missed that. My bad.

[Darq Ali]

Wasn't this revealed in Snape's flashback sequence? It wasn't stated, but it was fairly clear that Snape used Mundungus, correct?

Yes. Dumbledore told him to.

And Fletcher would work as the source Snape told LV he was using to get information from, as well, that is very true. Mundungus was a member of the Order, and LV might know that. He was also very unreliable; it was he who left Harry unguarded the night of the Dementor attack, and was also the person who riffled through Grimauld Place to find valuables to steal after Sirius' death, when the Order had to temporarily abandon the house as Headquarters, being uncertian of its' status with the last male Black dead ...........

So Mundungus would have served a dual role; the way to get the Order to use the multiple Harry strategy, the calculated risk Dumbledore was willing to take, that would enable Harry to escape though he was setting him up to be attacked ........ and, the fall guy to take the blame for this 'betrayal' of the information, when the real source was the dead Dumbledore.

Do we presume that the Order was consulting Dumbledore's portrait for making their plans? McGonnagal was a member, and acting Hogwart's Headmistress at the time. Even if they were not consulting the Dumbledore portrait, he could have overheard their plans, if she was discussing them in that office .......... but I assume, that the dead Dumbledore was in the know because they consulted him; that makes the most sense.

[RobRoy]

Do we presume that the Order was consulting Dumbledore's portrait for making their plans? McGonnagal was a member, and acting Hogwart's Headmistress at the time. Even if they were not consulting the Dumbledore portrait, he could have overheard their plans, if she was discussing them in that office .......... but I assume, that the dead Dumbledore was in the know because they consulted him; that makes the most sense.

I had not thought this to be the case. I had thought that Snape had Mundungus Imperiused the whole time. Any information was given to Dumbledore through Snape from Mundungus.

The overhearing thing would work too.

I just didn't think the Order was consulting with Dumbledore . . . for whatever reason.

[Michael]

Wow! Did this thread ever take off in my absence, or what!

Sorry I couldn't be here to participate but I'll enjoy reading everyone's thoughts.