Theories on The deathly Hallows...Now has spoilers!!! Beware!
#1
Hey,

I have a couple what I think may be strong theories on some things that I think MAY happen in the seventh book. These are, of course in no way spoilers, Just a few ideas on what may happen...

If you do not wish to read theories on what may happen, don't read this thread.

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Dumbledore's Master plan:

1.) It turns out Dumbledore has split his soul once. And my guess would be if he did do it-his soul would have split IF he killed that dark wizard he defeated in 1945 (Grindewald or something?)

The question is if he could make one, why would Dumbledore make a horcrux? Simple-as part of his master plan which I believe he had. The master plan's purpose is to do Everything in his power to help Harry defeat Voldemort.

On page 473 of The half blood prince when Harry and Dumbledore are talking about Voldemort's possible Horcruxes Harry says 'You can use animals as Horcruxes?' Dumbledore replies 'Well, it is inadvisable to do so' he goes on to say it is a risky business. But remember how intelligent Dumbledore was. If my second point (Which I'll make below) is true it will make perfect sense.

If part of Dumbledore's master plan was to be killed himself. What is the one way he could continue to guide and help Harry? An animal Horcrux? And which animal is immortal?.....A phoenix perhaps? I would say that would be the wisest choice of all animals.

Remember what Dumbledore said, again on page 473 of Half Blood Prince' 'I wonder what you will say when I confess that I have been curious for a while about the behaviour of the snake nagini?' and again ' He seems to have an unusual amount of control over her, even for a parselmouth.'

Well I confess to all reading this, that I have been curious for a while of the behaviour of the phoenix Fawkes. Dumbledore seemed to have an unusual amount of control over him.

I can see Fawkes returning to guide and help Harry. I can imagine vaguely a crucial fight between a snake and a phoenix. But who knows?

2. Snape. For years I have been adamant that Snape was on Voldemort's side. I am a little older now and believe I was very wrong (I'm 22 and wise now lol.)

The next part of Dumbledore's master plan is to be killed by Snape. part of Dumbledore's intention was that after Snape kills him, Snape becomes Voldemort's undisputed and most trusted and respected follower....or so Voldemort believes. Now Dumbledore has an incredibly powerful advantage or rather, Harry has. But he doesn't know it. Will Harry find at the last stand that he has Snape on his side?

Remember the heated argument between Snape and Dumbledore that Hagrid over heard in The Half Blood Prince? I believe Snape wanted to go back on his agreement to kill Dumbledore, because of his loyalty to Dumbledore. Dumbledore got very angry apparently-because Snape killing him was imperitive to his Master plan, and essential to Voldemort's demise and Harry's victory.

Snape was not triumphant (and certainly not happy) after Dumbledore was killed, but seemingly distraught. He would'nt even hurt Harry with the smallest of curses. Which would have prevented harry from following him again and again. He then stopped Harry Torture from the cruciatus curse. He also gave Harry a lesson 'Blocked again and again until you Learn to close your mind and your mouth'.

I also think we'll find out the actual reason Dumbledore trusted Snape.

Like I said these are just my ideas, and a little long winded I know lol.
The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches,born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies,and the dark lord will mark him as his equal,and either must die at the hand of the other
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#2
I just want to say, I've just realised there's loads of typos at the begining, and in the title. Ah well.
The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches,born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies,and the dark lord will mark him as his equal,and either must die at the hand of the other
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#3
This line of reasoning can be fit into the facts of the story as we know them, but I doubt this is the way it will go.

The HP books are about Good vs Evil.

Yes, JKR does acknowledge that people on the "Good Side" do make mistakes. She also allows for enough complexity of life, to see that even basically dishonest people can serve the Cause of Good, such as Mundungus, who is a thief and lacking in morals, but still opposes LV {true Evil} and is very useful to the Order of the Pheonix; much as, the Mafia aided the Allied cause in WWII.

And that "The world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters", sure. And yes, that "good people" mess up, make mistakes; but that if they acknowledge their mistakes they are worthy of 'second chances', and all.

Still. There is a divide in Potterverse between Good and Evil, and some people and some deeds are firmly on the Evil side. Making a Horcrux in order to cheat Death is an Evil deed, as is splitting the soul in order to do so.

Many people read the Biblical Commandment about humans killing their fellows as "Thou Shalt Not Kill", but while the King James version is stately and sounds fitting, a better translation from the Hebrew would read, "Do No Murder", and there is a very real disntinction between the two. "Murder" is socially unacceptable killing; not "all killing"; and it is clear the Commandment is about Murder. The people to whom it was given practiced {with approval} Capitol Punishment, slaughter of food animals, animal sacrifice, and killed in war.

What is my point? That "murder" is an "evil" act in any society; and that in Potterverse, the act which would split the Wizard's soul, in order for them to make a Horcrux, would be Murder, not "any killing". The old Muggle, Frank Brice, who was the caretaker of the Riddle house, 'had a hard war' ....... he had killed other soldiers ........ but he was not a murderer, for the deaths of soldiers in war is not the same thing as murder.

Likewise, if Dumbledore had indeed killed the Dark Wizard, Grindewald, when he "defeated" him, that act would not have split Dumbledore's soul so that he could make a Horcrux. It may have been an act which resulted in the death of another, but it would not have been an "evil" act, which is something that is so wicked, that it damages the soul ........ it was a 'necessary' act in time of warfare, which even "good people" sometimes are called upon to participate in.

I have held out hope that Harry won't 'just kill' Tom Riddle/LV, becoming a 'bigger badder killer wizard' than LV. Perhaps the act of taking LV down would entail Harry going through the Veil taking Tom Riddle with him; that would serve, of course, but I have other ideas ......... about that locked room where they study Love, which is what has always protected Harry {his mother's Love} and which was the missing element in LV's life, from the moment of his conception .........

But I digress.

I agree that Fawlkes the Pheonix will play some part, and that he might have some message for Harry, and that D may aid Harry from beyond the grave; but the old wizard with the white beard always dies in the Hero's Journey, for the Hero must complete his passage to Manhood alone ........ D will not be back in the flesh. The making of a Horcrux is an evil act, and D does not do evil things.
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#4
Hmm, like I said they're just ideas. And yes, the morality behind making a horcrux makes a big hole in that theory I don't doubt. But still, Dumbledore's control over Fawkes does interest me. We'll see.

But what of Snape? What do you think of the theory that Dumbledore commanded Snape to kill him? (which I know is a fairly common theory) and where do you think his true allegiance lies? As I said before, I believe he was acting on Dumbledore's orders in order to place a powerful ally in Voldemort's confidence.
The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches,born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies,and the dark lord will mark him as his equal,and either must die at the hand of the other
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#5
The HP series is about Snape, sort of like The Lord of the Rings is about Sam; though each isn't exactly cast as the character in focus. Snape has purposefully written in an ambigious way, so that his real character and loyalty is always in doubt; and many actions he takes, and the snippets of his history we glimpse, have a duality about them that lends credence to arguments on either side, which side does he serve?

Hand in hand with this has always been Harry's view of Snape; and Snape's obvious dislike of Harry {real, or feigned for effect?}. In many instances, Harry has "suspected Snape", and been wrong. Until, of course, he sees Snape kill Dumbledore before his very eyes. Or so he thinks, but was D dying, from the potion in the lake or the curse on the Horcrux ring? Was the AK curse the cause of his death? The fall?

Oh, there is fodder for endless speculation! Most AK killings result in an instant death. Plop, dead. No flying through the air over a parapet. And then there is the trickle of blood from D's mouth. Dead bodies don't bleed. Had D died from the AK curse at the top of the tower, he'd not have a trickle of blood from his mouth after landing; that bespeaks of a death as a resule ot the fall, and some moments of dying on the ground of internal injuries from the landing. But if D were AK'd at the top of the tower, he would have been dead in that instant. And then, too, to use an Unforgavible Curse, you have to "mean it"; Fake Moody told his DADA class that; the entire class could have "AK'd" him, and he'd not have got so much as a nosebleed ........... could Snape have actually AK's D? Hmmmm

Redemption and Second Chances are a major part of the JKR theme; and we've many examples. Hagrid and Lupin and Snape are all people D gave chances; Tom Riddle, too. Sirius, with his Dark family, and "the prank", which earned Snape's undying hatred. Then there's Peter Pettigrew, with his Life Debt to Harry. And Snape, of course, "reformed Death Eater".

Well, my "best guesses" are that {a} Snape it was who was at Godric's Hollow the night of the Potter's death, and who was the wittness who informed Dumbledore. He did not see Peter, who was in rat form; Peter was also there, for it was he who betrayed the Potters', and also he who retireved LV's wand. So Snape it was who sent the message to Dumbledore, about the Potter's deaths at LV's hand, Lily's sacrifice to save Harry, Harry's survival, and LV's fall.

Harry will learn of this in some manner; perhaps a Pensive memory, or some other means, so that he knows at long last why Dumbledore really trusted Snape, and believed that he really, truly had "turned" from the Dark side and LV.

As for the events on the Tower, Snape was acting as he had to, and within Dumbledore's orders, if not under direct order to kill D. Unless we posit that D was psycic, he did not really anticipate the exact nature of the events which took place on the Tower. But Snape was to guard Draco, and keep him from being at killer if he could. And that was the situation when Snape walked into the Tower scene. What could he do?

Snape was "alone" there on D's side, after all. He may have guessed at Harry's presence, because of the second broom; but he also knew that Harry would have defended D at any cost; knew Harry had an invisibility cloak; and so must have realized that the hidden Harry was powerless to act. What, then could he do? If Snape had attempted to rescue Dumbledore, I can't see he would have been successful, with the several Death Eaters present, some of whom were probably under orders to kill Draco, should he fail in his task.

To save Draco, and save Harry {whose presence he must have understood}, Snape acted in the only way possible ......... finished Draco's task {killing Dumbledore}, and led them all away from the Tower {and the invisible Harry}. Only by this act could he salvage both Harry and Draco, and Dumbledore was dying, anyway.

Could ligillimancy between Snape and D have led to an 'order', "Kill me", from D to Snape. As I read the scene there wasn't time. I think Snape was under orders to guard both Draco and Harry, and his reading of the scene left him with the conclusion he had no other choice. But I don't read it as, "D ordered Snape to kill him."

I think D is dead and won't be back in person, though, I've also little doubt that Harry will think of things D taught him, and apply it, and also that some legacy from Dumbledore may prove very helpful ......... Fawlkes, the Pensive, a talking portrait, some other hidden message.

I think Snape is probably working for LV's downfall, no matter he really does dislike Harry. I think Harry has to learn about Snape, about who the real enemy is {LV}, and that he must ally with Snape, or at least trust him at some point, to achieve both their final goals {neurtalizing LV}.

I think Snape "ought to be" really a bad guy, because I don't think he is "restrained enough" in his treatment of Harry to really be "good". But my guess is, he is "really" on the good side no matter my dislike of him.
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#6
Interesting. I had somehow never thought that Dumbledore could have been already dying. And I don't doubt if Snape is on the good side that his prime orders at that time from D were to keep up the pretence that he is a loyal death eater at all times (even if that could mean killing Dumbledore-which is the point on which D and Snape argued about. Which Hagrid over heard) That he must do whatever he has to do to stay Voldemorts most trusted until...Voldemort's and Harry's final battle. When, perhaps Snape can be there like check mate in chess perhaps?
It would make sense that Dumbledore would see Snapes final purpose as a double agent as his only purpose. That all over obstacles he must do what he has to do to stay close to Voldemort.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if Snape has a similar reason to Harry to be against Voldemort. Maybe that's the reason Dumbledore trusts him. Maybe Voldemort killed someone Snape loved?

And yes, Snape could be on the order of the phoenix's side but still esentially bad.

Imagine if Snape helped Harry kill Voldemort...then turned on Harry? Though I do doubt that. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he feels somewhat to blame for Lilly and James's death, remorse.
The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches,born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies,and the dark lord will mark him as his equal,and either must die at the hand of the other
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#7
Quote:Maybe Voldemort killed someone Snape loved?

Lily, perhaps?

I can envision Snape fighting to the death to avenge Lily's death. Maybe Snape is one of the characters to die.
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#8
Other than Snape and Lily both being good at potions, I don't see a whole lot of support for the S/L angle. Given Snape's personality, and his dislike of Muggle-borns, I would think he'd be more inclined to be jealous and resentful of Lily than he would be to like her, much less love her, even secretly. The one time that we saw Lily trying to help Snape, he was anything but grateful. I think this is just one of those theories created to give some credence to the "Snape is a good guy" theory. We shall find out in a month who's right. :bg:

I don't have any real theories for the next book. I prefer to just read and find out what the author comes up with, but I do enjoy seeing what other people can come up with in the meantime. Smile
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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#9
Darq Ali Wrote:And then, too, to use an Unforgavible Curse, you have to "mean it"; Fake Moody told his DADA class that; the entire class could have "AK'd" him, and he'd not have got so much as a nosebleed ........... could Snape have actually AK's D? Hmmmm

That's interesting - especially then given all the focus on being able to cast spells without speaking aloud. Could Snape have cast a different spell? He said Avarda Kadava, but could he have been thinking a different spell? Still believe that Dumbledore is dead, but still believe that Snape is one of the good guys. All speculation as you say - and soon we will have all the answers - can't wait!
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#10
I never bought into the "Snape Loved Lily" angle, either, though I have read endless speculation about the concept. In any case, "LV killed Lily, whom Snape secretly loved", does not "wash" as to why Snape went over to the good side ........ the time line simply does not wash.

Snape was a classmate of the Merauders {James Potter, Sirius, Lupin and Peter Pettigrew} and also of Lily Evans, that's true. In Harry's day, Griffendors shared Potions classes with Slytherns, so, we might presume {though its a guess} that therefore, Snape and Lily also shared Potions classes. We've learned {from Slughorn} that Lily was gifted in Potions, and of course, Snape was the Half-Blood Prince, who was likewise very gifted in the same subject.

Would Snape have therefore "admired" or even "loved" Lily? That's not impossible, of course, but Snape {ever the loner} seems more likely to have viewed Lily as a rival, rather than a role model. Snape is competative, and craves respect. And there's the whole "Mudblood" issue, which he threw in Lily's face the one time we saw them interact {in the Pensive memory}. Snape became a Death Eater; he had to have had early leanings toward the "Purebloods are best, Muggle-borns are unworthy" concept, for that was basic to LV's philosophy, after all.

Further, there is the whole time line thing. Remember when Harry learned that Snape had been a Death Eater by visiting D's memory of the Wizarding Trials in the Pensive? Karakov had testified to the names of other Death Eaters, and Snape was one name he revealed. But D told the Wizingamot that he had already testified {at a different trial} that Snape had "turned", and remained on the "inside" to pass information to him, at great personel risk. That was before LV fell. And the nignt LV "fell" was the night he attempted to kill Harry, and did kill Lily and James. Certainly, if "Snape loved Lily", then LV killed someone Snape loved. But that couldn't be the reason "Snape turned", for the death of Lily Evans Potter came after Snape "turned".

I will not deny that there is some mystery about Lily, and that it could involve Snape. One passage troubles me in this regard. The night of the Dementor attack upon Harry and Dudley, Petunia at long last does something that reveals her knowledge of the Wizarding World ......... she backs Harry's story about Dementors to Vernon. Harry is astonished; and when she is asked how she knows what Dementors are, she explains that she overheard something "that awful boy" was telling Lily about them.

Harry rounds on her for not naming his father, James, in her revelation of this event. But she does not. Which leaves us to wonder ........ was "that awful boy" James Potter, or .............. someone else? If it were someone other than James, it could have been anyone; any wizard of Lily's age, that is, as she said "boy" {not man} and, since the subject of the conversation overheard was "dementors", we must assume the speaker was a Wizard ....... but not, say, Dumbledore, who would not have been "a boy".

Who, then? If it were not James, but a companion, then it would most likely have been Sirius or Lupin, even Peter Pettigrew; but ............ it might just have been Snape; though, positing a setting where Petunia and Lily Evans were in the same place as Snape boggles the mind. Yet it might have been; at a Hogwarts event, perhaps? [Family sometimes visit Hogwarts students.]

Anyway, there are only a few basic possibilities for Snape: LV minion, Dumbledores' Man, or Out For Himself. I've always favored "Out For Himself", but the way I read the last twist, he's Dumbledor's man, just as Harry is. My reason is the "twist" of Snapes' appearing to kill D at the close of the chapter of this story. If Snape were to be revealed at the end as "a bad guy", my idea is, Harry would have been suspecting him all through HB Prince, as he always did, and been proven wrong yet again ........ since Harry seemed to have been "proven right" this time 'round, this has to be a twist, and Snape really is good. Harry will need his aid in his real task {getting rid of LV}, and must learn to trust Snape to accept this aid. What Harry "thinks he knows" must be overcome to that end.

*sigh* Only about a month to go.
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#11
I think Petunia would consider any wizard to be an "awful boy" and she certainly didn't think much of James. I don't see any reason to suspect she might have been talking about someone else.
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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#12
GamgeeFest Wrote:I think Petunia would consider any wizard to be an "awful boy" and she certainly didn't think much of James. I don't see any reason to suspect she might have been talking about someone else.

Oh, I agree that taking her to mean "James Potter" is the simplest and most straightforward reading. And I did, at first. But some things hide in plain sight. Petunia didn't specify James Potter. She did say the person was male, and "a boy", and we must presume "a wizard" because of the information he imparted. We know he knew Lily well enough to have been in her company when Petunia was also present to "overhear" a conversation; and we might guess that this may have been at the Evans' home, which speaks for familiarity beyond casual acquaintance.

But we cannot be certain it was James. It may have been one of James' close friends or a classmate who had cause to speak to Lily within Petunia's hearing {and if the occasion were at Hogwarts, or say, Diagon Alley, when the Evans' family was buying Lily her school supplies .......... as we see the Granger family there, buying Hermionie's school supplies ...........} it might have been any young wizarding male.

What makes me wonder is JKR's having Harry press her to identify who she overheard, and her refusal to do so ...............

My guess is, that it was James; but the content of the passage does allow for other possibilities, and one wonders why it was a point twice made, that Petunia did not say who she overheard.
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#13
I just have a feeling that Snape loved, or had an infatution for, Lily. She had witnessed his humililation. It may have been natural for Snape, whose feelings were hurt, to lash out at her or anyone else who witnessed this. The proximity in class would have given Snape a chance to realize that at least one mudblood was talented in a field in which he was also talented. He may have gone the rival route, but he may have been led to notice Lily because of this talent. He was a loner and may otherwise not have noticed her. Noticing her, perhaps he developed a crush. A crush that he would deny vehemently by using insulting names, not unheard of in youngsters.

I had a rivalry when I was in school with a guy. We both tried very hard to get the best grades. There was no animosity at all, in fact we were friends and liked and respected each other.

It is fun to speculate, but I am ready for the new book so that we get answers.
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#14
Darq Ali Wrote:Oh, I agree that taking her to mean "James Potter" is the simplest and most straightforward reading. And I did, at first. But some things hide in plain sight. Petunia didn't specify James Potter. She did say the person was male, and "a boy", and we must presume "a wizard" because of the information he imparted. We know he knew Lily well enough to have been in her company when Petunia was also present to "overhear" a conversation; and we might guess that this may have been at the Evans' home, which speaks for familiarity beyond casual acquaintance.

But we cannot be certain it was James. It may have been one of James' close friends or a classmate who had cause to speak to Lily within Petunia's hearing {and if the occasion were at Hogwarts, or say, Diagon Alley, when the Evans' family was buying Lily her school supplies .......... as we see the Granger family there, buying Hermionie's school supplies ...........} it might have been any young wizarding male.

What makes me wonder is JKR's having Harry press her to identify who she overheard, and her refusal to do so ...............

My guess is, that it was James; but the content of the passage does allow for other possibilities, and one wonders why it was a point twice made, that Petunia did not say who she overheard.

Sorry, I still don't see the support for assuming she's talking about anyone else. The actual passage you're referring to reads:

Quote:"I heard - that awful boy - telling her about them - years ago," she said jerkily.

"If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you use their names?" Harry said loudly, but Aunt Petunia ignored him. She seemed horribly flustered.

Your theory is that since Petunia didn't say James's name, that she could have meant someone else. By this same reasoning, then "her" could have been some witch other than Lily. Petunia may not have been talking about James and Lily at all.

We were told very early on in the first book that Petunia *never* said James's or Lily's names, and neither did Vernon or Dudley. It was only natural that Harry would finally snap at her about this, and that she wouldn't respond given the shock she must be in.
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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#15
I agree with GamgeeFest. The way it is written, with the hypens, is different than if it had been written without them:

"I heard that awful boy telling her about them." could be any wizard.

"I heard (pause) that awful boy (pause) telling her about them" means there is a reason that she doesn't mention the name. In the first case she may have forgotten the name or didn't care what it was. In the second case, she is consciously chosing to not use it. Just MHO.
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#16
Again, I have agreed that James Potter is the most likely candidate for being "that awful boy" of Petunia's reference. That is indeed the most likely case, and {as I said} the most straightforward reading of the passage.

However, she does not specify James, any more then she did Lily. The her is pretty clearly her hated sister {Lily}, but there is 'wiggle room' on the identity of "that awful boy". I am not arguing that it was someone other than James, only that "it could be". Those that argue that Snape 'had a thing for' Lily have elsewhere speculated that Snape {rather than James} could be "that awful boy", and there is nothing in the passage that clearly states it wasn't Snape, nor anyone else other than James Potter, for that matter. It is a little ambiguous.

I cannot disagree that Snape may have had 'a thing for' Lily Evans.

However, I do argue that Lily's death at LV's hand cannot have been the reason Snape "turned" {or, appears to have turned} from his Death Eater's ways. Again, the timing does not fit the facts as we know them.

Snape was a Death Eater. He was sent by LV to secure a post at Hogwarts, so as to be a spy within the school on LV's behalf. For that reason, he was at the Hogs' Head tavern when Trelawney was there interviewing for a post, as well, and thus it was that he overheard {part of} The Prophecy concerning Harry and LV. We know Snape had not "turned" by that date, because he reported what he had heard. Trelawney gets a job, but Snape does not, until later .......... at least a year later {the exact time can be worked out by what Snape tells Umbridge about the number of years he has worked at Hogwarts}.

Remember, Harry {and Neville} had not been born at the time Trelawney made the Prophecy. And Harry was over a year old when Lily and James were killed by LV, in his attempt to murder Harry. So there is a time period of over a year, almost two in fact, between when Death Eater Snape hears {and reports} The Prophecy, and when LV at last managed to kill the Potters, making Harry an orphan.

Sometime in that time frame, Snape "turned", and Dumbledore gave him a job. It had to be before the Potter's deaths, however, because at Karakov's trial in the Pensive scene, Dumbledore reminds the Wizingemot that he had already testified that Snape had been serving as an informant against LV "at great personel risk", for some time, before LV's fall. And LV's fall was at the exact time of the Potter's murder.

So, if "Snape loved Lily" and that is offered as the reason he "turned" against LV, the timing had to be when Snape learned how LV intrepreted the Prophecy that Snape himself had reported, which endangered Lily because it made her son Harry a target. It could not have been "because LV killed Lily", for Snape turned on LV prior to his fall, which was Lily's doing, actually, by her act of sacrifice for her son.

I don't like the "Snape loved Lily" line, myself. Too much of an "ick" factor. And also, the animosity Snape seems to bear for Harry contridicts this concept, to me. O.K., I know, Harry looks remarkably like his father James, and Snape's hatred of James is very real; and he might not only see James in his son, but also be reminded that James is Harry's father, and not himself, Snape, especially since it is "Lily's eyes" that look out of Harry's face, as well.

But to me, a man who was deeply affected by the death of a woman he loved should be unable to hate her son so deeply.

Of course, there is the concept that Snape's animus toward Harry is feigned for effect; part of his act. If so, he is over the top in his method acting if you ask me. His cruelty is pretty savage to be an act. I know many excuse Snape on this basis, but I don't buy it.
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#17
Darq Ali Wrote:Of course, there is the concept that Snape's animus toward Harry is feigned for effect; part of his act. If so, he is over the top in his method acting if you ask me. His cruelty is pretty savage to be an act. I know many excuse Snape on this basis, but I don't buy it.

I'm with you regarding the timeframe of Snape's turning. I don't agree on Snape loving Lily, but that's just me. The timeframe, though, doesn't allow for this to be the turning-point reason, though it easily could have been a major factor.

But as for the above, I disagree. We've already discussed the "is Snape abusive" question, and to my mind, following that discussion, Snape was not for any number of reasons.

However, just for the sake of this argument, Dumbledore always knew/suspected that Voldemort would make a return. Snape was Dumbledore's man, at least as far as Dumbledore was concerned. Given that, it isn't too far to reach a conclusion that Dumbledore ordered a degree of ambivilance, animosity and agression (feigned or otherwise) from Snape toward Harry. Anything less than that "pretty savage" method acting would not be convincing. Given how deep Snape is into Dumbledore's confidence as well the councils of the Order of the Phoenix, any reasonable doubt could mean the death or destruction of the Order and most certainly of Snape and we know how trusting Voldemort is.

As for Dumbledore creating a horcrux himself, I recall two points. First, and my memory is fuzzy on this, didn't the card state that Dumbledore defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald, not killed? Given Dumbledore's stance on such things, this would suggest that Dumbledore somehow removed Grindelwald from power without resorting to killing.

Second, Rowling has stated that we should not expect a "Gandalf" reappearance of Dumbledore, which would also preclude the creation of a horcrux.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#18
Darq Ali Wrote:Again, I have agreed that James Potter is the most likely candidate for being "that awful boy" of Petunia's reference. That is indeed the most likely case, and {as I said} the most straightforward reading of the passage.

However, she does not specify James, any more then she did Lily. The her is pretty clearly her hated sister {Lily}, but there is 'wiggle room' on the identity of "that awful boy". I am not arguing that it was someone other than James, only that "it could be". Those that argue that Snape 'had a thing for' Lily have elsewhere speculated that Snape {rather than James} could be "that awful boy", and there is nothing in the passage that clearly states it wasn't Snape, nor anyone else other than James Potter, for that matter. It is a little ambiguous.

Sorry, but if you're going to posit that "that awful boy" could *possibly* be someone other than James, then you also have to posit that "her" could *possibly* be someone other than Lily. You would then also have to posit that "some years ago" could *possibly* mean sometime prior to Lily even finding out she's a witch - or even be sometime after Lily and James's death. The argument has to be applied to all parts of the equation, which means that Petunia could have *possibly* been talking about *any* wizard and *any* witch at *any* time in her life. Again, Petunia NEVER used James's and Lily's names, so the fact that she does not give a name now is not ambiguous at all. To me, that *is* what identifies her subjects as being James and Lily.

Besides - Snape? Hanging out at the Dursleys? It boggles the mind.



Darq Ali Wrote:Of course, there is the concept that Snape's animus toward Harry is feigned for effect; part of his act. If so, he is over the top in his method acting if you ask me. His cruelty is pretty savage to be an act. I know many excuse Snape on this basis, but I don't buy it.

I have to agree with RR, so far as that if Snape is to convince the DE and LV that he is against Harry, then nothing *but* absolute vehemence towards Harry is going to get the job done. However, I do not believe that it is all an act. There is some real hostility there, transfered from his hatred of James and his dislike (sorry Arcadia) of Lily.

As for the matter of Snape's 'cruelity': after rereading the books, I have to say that Snape's treatment of Harry, even in light of his hatred of James and all his transference issues, is actually rather tame. That's not to say that he treats Harry fairly, because he does not, but I also cannot say that he is ever outright abusive to Harry. Snape has a very fine line to walk and he is doing it extremely well, no matter which side he turns out to be working for.



On a somewhat connected note, there is an instance of Dumbledore being wrong about Snape. In PoA, Dumbledore states that he believes the reason Snape dislikes James is because James saved his life and that Snape then owed him a life debt. However, Snape later says the exact opposite, that he hates James and Sirius because they were the ones who instigated the prank that almost caused Snape to be killed. Snape made it very clear that he believed James was only covering his own behind by saving Snape. Now, if Snape was 'method acting' through that whole rant, then Dumbledore's explanation holds water. If Snape was not acting, but in fact being completely 100% honest (as I believe he was) then we do have an instance of Dumbledore misinterpreting Snape's true feelings and intentions before the events at the end of HBP.
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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#19
Quote:On a somewhat connected note, there is an instance of Dumbledore being wrong about Snape. In PoA, Dumbledore states that he believes the reason Snape dislikes James is because James saved his life and that Snape then owed him a life debt. However, Snape later says the exact opposite, that he hates James and Sirius because they were the ones who instigated the prank that almost caused Snape to be killed. Snape made it very clear that he believed James was only covering his own behind by saving Snape. Now, if Snape was 'method acting' through that whole rant, then Dumbledore's explanation holds water. If Snape was not acting, but in fact being completely 100% honest (as I believe he was) then we do have an instance of Dumbledore misinterpreting Snape's true feelings and intentions before the events at the end of HBP.

Would you remind me when the scene of Snape's telling DD about the incident took place? If in Snape's childhood, then DD probably could tell if he was lying. Later, after Snape became skilled at hiding his thoughts, then DD wouldn't have been able to tell.

Hm! Am I the only one who thinks that Snape had a crush on Lily? I wonder why I had that impression (that he secretly loved her)- I must have read something that made me think this.
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#20
Not sure when exactly, or if, Dumbledore ever spoke directly to Snape about the Whomping Willow incident. That information is never revealed. Dumbledore and Snape just tell Harry, independently and at completely different times, about the incident.


I've seen the "Snape loves Lily" theory elsewhere, so you're not alone Arcadia! Most of the S/L theorists support their theory with Dumbledore's statement that Snape was so remorseful over her death and because she was so good in Potions class. I've even seen the theory that LV was the one who was secretly in love w/ Lily, hence his reluctance to kill her and actually offering her the opportunity to get away.
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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