Theories on The deathly Hallows...Now has spoilers!!! Beware!
#81
GamgeeFest Wrote:True, but since when has Rita ever used a reliable source? If a letter did come for Ariana, the DDs could have easily told the school that she would be schooled at home - due to her illness.

They didn't even have to respond, did they? I recall that I had a handful of acceptance letters from various universities and it was not required that I tell any of them that I would actually attend, unless there was a financial understanding involved.

It seems likely that there are any number of young wizards and witches whose families receive the letters, but have other plans already in mind and never respond.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#82
RobRoy Wrote:They didn't even have to respond, did they? I recall that I had a handful of acceptance letters from various universities and it was not required that I tell any of them that I would actually attend, unless there was a financial understanding involved.

It seems likely that there are any number of young wizards and witches whose families receive the letters, but have other plans already in mind and never respond.

This was certainly the case with the Gaunt family; neither Merope nor Morphin attended Hogwarts, but both had wands. And as their father didn't take messages from owls, nor respond to them, one can presume their Hogwart's letters went unanswered.

I do presume that the Underage Magic restriction isn't applied to the lessons and practice of home-schooled witches and wizards.

My point on Neville, and on Ariana Dumbledore, was that if there is a magical quill which makes a list, that a review of that list can settle several issues.

For Neville's family, review of the list could have settled if he were a Squib, or not; and if he were 'magical enough' to gain entry to Hogwarts.

For Ariana, such a list would reveal that she was not a Squib. This would have served to provide support to the story put about that she was in poor health, too frail to attend Hogwarts. Which was, actually, in a sense wholly true: the 'frailty' in question being of mind, not body. Yes, Rita Skeeter wrote to sell sensationalism, much like any tabloid; but it would have seemed to be an easy issue to verify one way or the other.

So the list must have very restricted access.

As for Neville's family, perhaps they were like those modern parents who choose not to ask the Dr for the ultra-sound's revelations as to a baby's sex, but prefer to wait for the natural course of events to reveal the matter in the fulness of time ...........
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#83
Darq Ali Wrote:So the list must have very restricted access.

Or it's restricted to parents and guardians only, or restricted to authorized Ministry personnel only.

Quote:As for Neville's family, perhaps they were like those modern parents who choose not to ask the Dr for the ultra-sound's revelations as to a baby's sex, but prefer to wait for the natural course of events to reveal the matter in the fulness of time ...........

I was going to say that perhaps his grandmother didn't care to look, but the rest of the family held the concern, but she did react rather vehemently, which suggests that she didn't know. That may still have been the case, even with her reaction, she had simply decided that if Neville didn't show magical acumen, then that wouldn't change her feelings for him. But knowing he was going to follow in the family tradition, eased her mind some. <shrug>
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#84
RobRoy Wrote:Or it's restricted to parents and guardians only, or restricted to authorized Ministry personnel only.



I was going to say that perhaps his grandmother didn't care to look, but the rest of the family held the concern, but she did react rather vehemently, which suggests that she didn't know. That may still have been the case, even with her reaction, she had simply decided that if Neville didn't show magical acumen, then that wouldn't change her feelings for him. But knowing he was going to follow in the family tradition, eased her mind some. <shrug>

And yet ............ and yet, we have Hagrid's statement:

"If he wants ter go, a great Muggle like you won't stop him," growled Hagrid. "Stop Lily and James Potter's son goin' ter Hogwarts! Yer mad. His name's been down ever since he was born. "

So, Hagrid claimed to know Harry's name was on the list for Hogwarts since his birth. Not so secret, it seems .......... and if Hagrid could know this, what would stop a Rita Skeeter? [She seeminly didn't try to find out "facts" about Ariana ....... only that there was a Dumbledore daughter/sister, and that she was kept home, hidden ....... I think it would have posed little challenge to establish if the girl were a Squib, or not, for the List would settle the matter definitivly; but I think Rita Skeeter preferred the "Squib" definition of the child, it being such a delicious 'fact' to disclose.]
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#85
Just FYI, you really ought to acknowledge when you add emphasis that wasn't in the original text. Usually just a bracketed [emphasis added] so that it doesn't change the context of the original statements. Not mandatory, mind, just a good way to avoid miscommunication. :bg:

Darq Ali Wrote:"If he wants ter go, a great Muggle like you won't stop him," growled Hagrid. "Stop Lily and James Potter's son goin' ter Hogwarts! Yer mad. His name's been down ever since he was born. "

This does seem the clinch it, although we have no idea what list Hagrid is talking about. It might be as simple as a "legacy" list that other similar schools have about letting in children of past alums. Legacies, at certain schools, get admittance preference so long as they meet other acceptance criteria. <shrug>

Alternately, we know Hagrid was privvy to some rather sensitive information and tasks, carrying Harry to the Dursley's, retrieving the Philosopher's Stone, etc. Perhaps Dumbledore, as Headmaster, had access to the list, and Hagrid was made aware of it by Dumbledore for the purposes of retrieving Harry. <shrug>

Weak arguments, I grant, but in trying to align the text with Rowlings' statements, that's the best I can come up with.

Quote: . . . but I think Rita Skeeter preferred the "Squib" definition of the child, it being such a delicious 'fact' to disclose.

Definately. Especially given the current atmosphere and growing anti-muggle, anti-muggle-born sentiments. Skeeter definately played into that by suggesting that the family could produce a squib, and then Dumbledore was so embarassed that he tried to hide Ariana as his mother did before him. Once more, flying in the face of everything Dumbledore stood for.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#86
RobRoy Wrote:Just FYI, you really ought to acknowledge when you add emphasis that wasn't in the original text. Usually just a bracketed [emphasis added] so that it doesn't change the context of the original statements. Not mandatory, mind, just a good way to avoid miscommunication. :bg:

Yes, I suppose I should have added that the text didn't underline the passage. I did so you could see the major point my citation was referencing, with the first sentences left in for context.



This does seem the clinch it, although we have no idea what list Hagrid is talking about.

Well, it seems to be a list of students admitted to Hogwarts. That is what Hagrid is talking about; Harry's entry into Hogwarts.

If this list is compiled by a Magical Quill upon the birth of each Magical child, of course Harry would be on it ........ along with Neville, and all the others.

OTOH, if Magical ability sometimes does not 'emerge' until a child is older ........ as with Neville, who {by his own words} never showed any Magic until he was eight, and dropped out a window ....... then the Quill might add each child to the list as their Magic manifested; detected, as it were, by some similar 'spell' as The Trace detects inappropriate Underage Magic by children in school, who have wands but are restricted in their Magical applications.

Some children manifest Magic at birth, as we see with Tonks and her son Teddy, who showed they were born Metamorphmagus by changing their hair color the very day of their birth. The magic detecting Quill would write them down that day; and perhaps Harry's magical talent was manifest at his birth {in another way}.

And the Quill could add Neville at age 8, if it took that long to be obvious that he was not a Squib. That makes sense, but seems to conflict with your 'canon' that JKR has said the Magical Detecting Quill records each magical child at birth.

There does seem to be a distinction between "being Magical" and "being offered a place at Hogwarts", anyway. Dumbledore offered Hagrid a place, and offered Lupin a place, when {we were told} many another Headmaster would not have done. Each was Magical, each could use a wand.

Lupin would be a person naturally on the list from birth; but his Little Furry Problem was inflicted upon him later. How would he be removed from the list, if it were written at his birth and not somehow reviewed and revised, at least for removals of any who 'became undesirable', such as a child bitten by a Werewolf? {And how is that known, detected, recorded?}

Then there is Hagrid, who is clearly a "magical person" but not purely Human. We know there are many non-Human Magical beings ........ House Elves and Goblins who 'have Magic' within them, but do not use Wands; they are governed by the Ministry, but never educated at Hogwarts. Giants have "magical properties", such as skin which generally deflects unfriendly spells; Hagrid has some of those properties. But he's half-Human, too. How was it that it was Dumbledore who decided that this particular person be offered a position at Hogwarts? Was he recorded on the list at birth, with an asterisk? Or, not recorded, but observed as "magical" by his Human father, who petitioned for his entry?

Oh, I do manage to over-think things. But clearly, there is a lot more to it that a Quill which writes a list at each Magical infant's birth. Or, Neville's family wouldn't have wondered if he were "magical enough" to get into Hogwarts, after all. Being Magical and getting into Hogwarts are not one and the same, that much is clear. Being a Werewolf or only half Human can be causes for exclusion, so that list must be revised somehow.

It might be as simple as a "legacy" list that other similar schools have about letting in children of past alums. Legacies, at certain schools, get admittance preference so long as they meet other acceptance criteria.

Hmm. But, you see, you have to have Magic to be offered a position at Hogwarts. Squibs aren't educated there. While Squib children are not near as common as Muggle-born Wizarding folk, any family might have one.
<shrug>

Alternately, we know Hagrid was privvy to some rather sensitive information and tasks, carrying Harry to the Dursley's, retrieving the Philosopher's Stone, etc. Perhaps Dumbledore, as Headmaster, had access to the list, and Hagrid was made aware of it by Dumbledore for the purposes of retrieving Harry. <shrug>

Hagrid knew about Harry from the time of his birth, because he knew Harry's parents; Hagrid it was who took Harry from the ruins of his home where his parents lay dead, and delivered him to the Dursleys', after all. And there does not seem to have ever been a question if Harry were a Squib baby. I don't get the sense that Hagrid was entrusted with any 'special information' that Harry was a Magical baby. Surely, the fact that LV's AK rebounded when he attempted to kill Harry was proof of that, even though the entire affair wasn't fully understood; Hagrid said to Harry that parts of it were a great mystery. Well, the issue of Lily's blood sacrifice, and the existance of LV's Horcruxes were not generally known.

We never did learn how Dumbledore knew any of it; nor, how the Wizarding World knew, almost 'instantly' as it were, either. Who told? Owls flew, but sent by whom? Was Bathilda on the spot, and very busy? In any case, Harry's "magical status" was clearly known by Hagrid from his infancy, and not something to be revealed as a special bit of information necessary to get Harry from the Dursleys'.

[Aside: I especially appreciated that Hagrid took Harry to the Dursley's on the flying motorbike, and in the end, Harry departed the same way. Full circle, and all. But, I didn't get why Harry could not be placed under his Cloak and in the car with the Dursleys as they drove away, and then, met at some neutral place well away from Privat Drive and Apperated away in a different direction than the Dursleys were taken. Of course, we had to get into the action at once, and the story as written gave us our 'mystery of the Traitor', and got rid of Hedwig and the Firebolt all in one stroke. But it seemed wholly unnecessary to me. And at the least, why not just have a bunch of Fake Harry's, with the real Harry under his Cloak?


Weak arguments, I grant, but in trying to align the text with Rowlings' statements, that's the best I can come up with.



Definately. Especially given the current atmosphere and growing anti-muggle, anti-muggle-born sentiments. Skeeter definately played into that by suggesting that the family could produce a squib, and then Dumbledore was so embarassed that he tried to hide Ariana as his mother did before him. Once more, flying in the face of everything Dumbledore stood for.

Interesting points of the story as a whole.

The Trio had one representative of each kind of Wizarding person:

The Purebred {Ron}

The Half-blood {Harry, who had a Purebred father and a witch mother who was Muggle-born}

The Muggle-born {Hermionie}.

The numbers of Half-bloods in major roles is striking. They include Tom Riddle/LV, Hagrid, and, we finally learn, Dumbledore himself. Just like Harry, his mother is a Muggle-born witch. Her supposed problem was that of pride ......... she {supposedly} did not wish to admit to producing a Squib, a non-Magical child. But of course, that wasn't the case at all. Again, my "take" is that the Wizarding World was sorely lacking in ways to deal with problems such as damaged Magical people in a compassionate way; as well as their seeming to have a total lack of orphanages. I mean, if the Magical Detecting Quill recorded the birth of Tom Riddle in a Muggle Orpahnage, the Magical World would have been far, far better off to see him adopted toot sweet into a Magical Home, or at least, taken into a Wizarding Orphanage to oversee his upbringing. But they ignored him until he was 11, and his personality pretty much 'set' in its sociopathic ways. Bad idea.
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#87
GamgeeFest Wrote:Yeah, sort of how people made a fuss about Clinton once smoking a joint - but he didn't inhale. Wink That was a "scandal" at the time, though most people I know couldn't have cared less.

From what I recall in DH, there were a couple of mentions of people questioning Rita's methods for getting information and her very obvious one-sided slant. She failed to get the whole story and represented the 'pitch' or 'angle' that would sell the most books. But there are people, such as Auntie Muriel, who believe the drivel that Rita prints, just as there are people who believe the nonsense written in tabloid magazines.

Yes, there is always an audience, or The Quibbler could not sell edition after edition about Crumple-Horned Snorkaks and Blibering Humdingers, after all.

But how many people read for a laugh, and how many really believe?
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#88
Darq Ali Wrote:I did so you could see the major point my citation was referencing, with the first sentences left in for context.

Yeppers, I know why you did it. I do it all the time. The concern if over the change of emphasis which can, at times, change the meaning of a particular phrase. Hence, the general use of an acknowledgement to others so there is less confusion. :bg:

Quote:Well, it seems to be a list of students admitted to Hogwarts. That is what Hagrid is talking about; Harry's entry into Hogwarts.

Wait, Harry was admitted to Hogwarts before he turned 11? Strange. Then why did he receive the usual admittance letter later? From the quote, I didn't think Hagrid made clear just what list he was referencing.

Quote:If this list is compiled by a Magical Quill upon the birth of each Magical child, of course Harry would be on it ........ along with Neville, and all the others.

That is if the list that Hagrid mentions and the list that Rowling referenced are the same two lists.

Quote:Hmm. But, you see, you have to have Magic to be offered a position at Hogwarts.

Hence the reason I said, " . . . so long as they meet other acceptance criteria." :bg:

Quote:I don't get the sense that Hagrid was entrusted with any 'special information' that Harry was a Magical baby.

We were discussing the list that Hagrid references on which Harry's name apparently appears. If this is the same list that Rowling references, AND the list is kept highly private, AND Dumbledore has access to it for the purpose of sending out Hogwarts acceptance letters, THEN Hagrid may have been given the information by Dumbledore. For what purpose, I can't say.

If the two lists are different (i.e. one is a magical children list kept private, the other is a legacy list), then there's no issue.

Quote:I mean, if the Magical Detecting Quill recorded the birth of Tom Riddle in a Muggle Orpahnage, the Magical World would have been far, far better off to see him adopted toot sweet into a Magical Home, or at least, taken into a Wizarding Orphanage to oversee his upbringing. But they ignored him until he was 11, and his personality pretty much 'set' in its sociopathic ways. Bad idea.

Unless, as I said, the list is kept private and only available to parents or guardians. Riddle, as a ward of the state, would not have any guardians within the wizarding world to request access to the list. Alternately, the "Magical Detecting Quill" might not have been employed at the time of Riddle's birth, and may have been a later invention/creation. <shrug>
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#89
It is possible that the list was a figure of speech. Hagrid may have been blustering and just popped out with this to reinforce his point that Harry would not be kept out of Hogwarts. He knew Harry at least from when they left him at his aunt's, and Hagrid may have known from then that Harry would be coming to Hogwarts. So a bit of exageration.

Such as when someone makes a silly joke in class and I laughingly frown and say they are "on the list." There is no list, it is just an expression.
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#90
Arcadia Wrote:It is possible that the list was a figure of speech. Hagrid may have been blustering and just popped out with this to reinforce his point that Harry would not be kept out of Hogwarts. He knew Harry at least from when they left him at his aunt's, and Hagrid may have known from then that Harry would be coming to Hogwarts. So a bit of exageration.

Such as when someone makes a silly joke in class and I laughingly frown and say they are "on the list." There is no list, it is just an expression.

This appears similar to how some of us took Aunt Petunia's exclamations of Lily doing magic all the time, but not knowing about the law against underage magic. We joke at work about being on the "good list" or the "bad list". I'm often on the bad list . . . I wonder why?! Blush
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#91
Quote:We joke at work about being on the "good list" or the "bad list". I'm often on the bad list . . . I wonder why?!

You get on the good list??? :jawdrop:

:bg:
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#92
Arcadia Wrote:You get on the good list???

Oh, hush you! I know where you . . . wait, no I don't. Curses! Foiled again!
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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