Was Yoda serious when he said Luke was too old?
#1
I'm curious if Yoda was simply acting because he did seem genuine with Obi-Wan that Luke was too old to begin the training and considering what happened with Anakin in the past, would he really consider not training him. Doesn't make sense since they had hoped that Luke would be the key to bringing the Emperor and Vader's downfall.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#2
Han Solo Wrote:I'm curious if Yoda was simply acting because he did seem genuine with Obi-Wan that Luke was too old to begin the training and considering what happened with Anakin in the past, would he really consider not training him. Doesn't make sense since they had hoped that Luke would be the key to bringing the Emperor and Vader's downfall.

It seemed to me that Yoda was just being stubborn, that it was a last ditch effort in an argument he knew he had already lost (with Ben).
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#3
RobRoy Wrote:It seemed to me that Yoda was just being stubborn, that it was a last ditch effort in an argument he knew he had already lost (with Ben).

I buy that but why argue when you're hoping to end the current regime of Palpatine. It's not like he could say well we'll go with your twin sister instead since she's the same age. Basically he didn't have alternatives and it's not like him and Obi-Wan were going to do it.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#4
Han Solo Wrote:I buy that but why argue when you're hoping to end the current regime of Palpatine. It's not like he could say well we'll go with your twin sister instead since she's the same age. Basically he didn't have alternatives and it's not like him and Obi-Wan were going to do it.

That would also beg the question, why the sham to begin with?

If the sham was a test, then perhaps everything was a test. How strong was Luke's conviction to become a Jedi? Would he stand up for himself if pressed? If Yoda wasn't willing to take him on, would he argue and try to make his own case? Would he rely on Obi-wan exclusively?
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#5
RobRoy Wrote:That would also beg the question, why the sham to begin with?

If the sham was a test, then perhaps everything was a test. How strong was Luke's conviction to become a Jedi? Would he stand up for himself if pressed? If Yoda wasn't willing to take him on, would he argue and try to make his own case? Would he rely on Obi-wan exclusively?
I think that you are right.If Luke had just said "well, whatever" they would have known that he was inadaquite.
But you are also right in saying that they had no other alternative.
Maybe if they didn't train him they would send him anyway.
Because then sidious would torture him and vader would still turn back to the good side.
Evil will always triumph because good is dumb:wicked:.
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#6
It was part of the training to make Luke aware of his shortcomings, I think.

Funny how we interpret the same scene differently, though! Robroy and some others think that it's to test Luke's resolve. My interpretation was that it was to show up Luke's impulsiveness and impatience (among other flaws), to be mended as teaching commences.

As Yoda said critically to Luke:
"Ready are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!"
:deadhorse:
"A Iluvatarinya! En na pelecco carinyesse!"
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head!" :worry:

http://www.yamara.com/axe/#Q1
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#7
Yoda was just holding on to the past, he was nervous about training anakin, who was 11 or 12, let alone a 19 or 20 year old man.
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#8
MasteroftheDarkSide Wrote:Yoda was just holding on to the past, he was nervous about training anakin, who was 11 or 12, let alone a 19 or 20 year old man.

Anakin was nine or ten when he was presented to, and rejected by, the Jedi Council. Given what happened, they were right to do so. In that context, I don't think Yoda was "holding on to the past" when he spoke that line to Luke some thirty years later.

Of course, I have never liked that the Jedi train, like monks, almost from birth, and that Anakin was first trained as a boy. As I've stated in my reviews of the prequels, while this lines up with the facts and statements from A New Hope on, the prequels have never gelled for me.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#9
RobRoy Wrote:Anakin was nine or ten when he was presented to, and rejected by, the Jedi Council. Given what happened, they were right to do so. In that context, I don't think Yoda was "holding on to the past" when he spoke that line to Luke some thirty years later.

Of course, I have never liked that the Jedi train, like monks, almost from birth, and that Anakin was first trained as a boy. As I've stated in my reviews of the prequels, while this lines up with the facts and statements from A New Hope on, the prequels have never gelled for me.

The prequels definitely suffer a bit in that they are forced to follow what was said in the original trilogy. But then again Lucas said he had it all planned out so it's a question of how much do you believe him on that.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#10
Han Solo Wrote:The prequels definitely suffer a bit in that they are forced to follow what was said in the original trilogy. But then again Lucas said he had it all planned out so it's a question of how much do you believe him on that.

Which I don't, except in the loosest sence imaginable. Watching A New Hope it seemed to me that Obi-wan was referencing Anakin, to Luke, as an adult when he met him, and not as a 9 year-old. I'm ok with the retcon Obi-wan uses to merge Vader and Anakin, but past that, Lucas stretches my suspension of disbelief to the breaking point and beyond.

It is a tribute (maybe) to Lucas, his fans and movie-goers in general, that he was able to sell the prequels in all their lack of glory.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#11
RobRoy Wrote:Anakin was nine or ten when he was presented to, and rejected by, the Jedi Council. Given what happened, they were right to do so.

But were they? Had Anakin never been trained as a Jedi he never would have killed the emperor. Anakin not being trained would not have stopped Palpantine's take-over, he just would have had a different right hand man (probably Dooku). So in the long run it worked out for the best.

I always thought Yoda was being serious when he made that argument. It is only after he has been training Luke for a while that he calls him a "hope" for the universe.
Xev, Xev of B3K, join us in our song!
After all, a thousand years isn't very long!
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#12
Zagor Wrote:But were they? Had Anakin never been trained as a Jedi he never would have killed the emperor. Anakin not being trained would not have stopped Palpantine's take-over, he just would have had a different right hand man (probably Dooku). So in the long run it worked out for the best.

While Anakin may not have killed the Emperor, there's no way of knowing what might have occured altogether. Palpatine seems to have been working Anakin from the first time that he met him, guiding him subtlely, and not-so-subtlely, toward the Dark Side. But he always seemed to know that Anakin was potentially one of the strongest Force users around, and turning him would have great rewards, which was true.

Without Anakin, all bets are off. I'm not as familair with the EU timeline in which Anakin participated heavily with Obi-wan, but remove him from the equation, and Obi-wan might simply have had a different, more maleable padawan-learner; if he'd had one at all. The Emperor no longer has an ace up his sleeve in turning Anakin, which results in a great deal of devastation, and other plans would have had to be laid to storm the Jedi Temple.

Some events, though, likely would have still occured. The use of the clone troopers to counter the Separtist movement, which started the (unaptly named) Clone War. Perhaps Obi-wan is not longer present (killed while trying to run-down an assassin?), but other powerful Jedi are still in the mix. Palpatine would still have to show his hand, and the use of Order 66, but that brings Mace Windu and another Jedi or padawan into confrontation with Palpatine, which would reveal whether or not Palpatine was feigning defeat to gain Anakin's assistance and final turning, or if Windu actually had the Emperor beaten. Even if the Emperor was stronger than Windu, was he stronger than Windu and another Jedi, or with a trained padawan? Tough call, but I'm guessing not.

As for placing Dooku, or anyone else at the Emperor's right hand, that's only a detriment to Palpatine. Vader was by far the more devastating power. Yoda was able to fight Dooku down, to the point that Dooku had to throw a distraction and flee. Obi-wan seemed confident that he and the partially-trained Anakin could take Dooku if they worked together, which suggests that a pair of Jedi could handle him, if one wasn't tempted by anger, hatred and the need to exact revenge.

So, it's hard to say if it would have "worked out for the best", but it does present an interesting alternative history.

Quote:I always thought Yoda was being serious when he made that argument. It is only after he has been training Luke for a while that he calls him a "hope" for the universe.

Two points here. First, if I may bring in cadence, tone and non-verbals (of which some 80% of communication is), Yoda seems to be clearly reaching, and Obi-wan's response suggests that Yoda is on the verge of being convinced. Obi-wan's final counter-argument isn't one of sound logic, but appeals to Yoda's pathos, "So was I, if you remember" drawing out the memory of a "reckless" Obi-wan to assuage the master Jedi's concerns. It is at this point that Yoda whips out his last-ditch attempt, "He is too old. Yes, too old to begin the training." It's that "yes", said as much to himself as to Obi-wan or Luke, that is the telling part, as if Yoda is trying to convince himself, as anyone else. Luke's response at this point is not that he isn't too old, but that he's already begun the training, that he's "learned so much" and that he's "not afraid", to which Yoda then states, as if he's already accepted Luke without any other argument "You will be. You will be."

If Yoda were truly of the belief that Luke was too old, then why the final line? Luke's argument is no more solid than anything that Obi-wan has already offered.

Second, when Obi-wan suggests, "That boy is our last hope", Yoda states that isn't true, he says, "No, there is another." So that if Luke fails, another hope can still be found. The suggestion has generally been taken to mean Leia, but does not necessarily have to be her. We know from the EU that there are other untrained Force users running around the Universe. It's possible that Yoda may have had alternative plans laid of which Obi-wan knew nothing. The counter-Leia argument is weak, I'll grant, but Yoda is clearly not of the opinion that everything rides on Luke. Although, given how much time Yoda had left, and that Leia had absolutely no training whatsoever, I'm uncertain what Yoda meant to accomplish if Luke failed and was killed or turned.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#13
RobRoy Wrote:Obi-wan seemed confident that he and the partially-trained Anakin could take Dooku if they worked together, which suggests that a pair of Jedi could handle him, if one wasn't tempted by anger, hatred and the need to exact revenge.

Perhaps so. But Obi-Wan and Anakin lost once to Dooku (though as you say Anakin rushed in and put them at a disadvantage) and although they manage to beat him at the start of Ep 3. Obi-Wan took quite a tharashing during the battle. Anakin on the other hand couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a one-on-one. (The fight in Ep 4 doesn't really count as Obi-Wan threw the fight).

You've convinced me about Yoda though. I suppose I never really thought about it before.
Xev, Xev of B3K, join us in our song!
After all, a thousand years isn't very long!
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#14
Zagor Wrote:Perhaps so. But Obi-Wan and Anakin lost once to Dooku (though as you say Anakin rushed in and put them at a disadvantage) and although they manage to beat him at the start of Ep 3. Obi-Wan took quite a tharashing during the battle. Anakin on the other hand couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a one-on-one. (The fight in Ep 4 doesn't really count as Obi-Wan threw the fight).

A battle can be won or lost depending on any number of circumstances and not just the strength of ability, or the ability of strength. Had Anakin not been treading on the Dark Side when he and Obi-wan confronted Dooku, things might have gone very much in favor of the Jedi.

Quote:You've convinced me about Yoda though. I suppose I never really thought about it before.

Thanks, though it doesn't mean I'm right. That's just been my interpretation of the events. :whistle:
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#15
RobRoy Wrote:A battle can be won or lost depending on any number of circumstances and not just the strength of ability, or the ability of strength. Had Anakin not been treading on the Dark Side when he and Obi-wan confronted Dooku, things might have gone very much in favor of the Jedi.

Maybe, but even then it would have taken both of them. Neither one lasted too long in a one-on-one. They managed to just about beat him in Ep 3, but Dooku did a lot better against Obi-Wan and Anakin than Anakin did agaisnt Obi-Wan alone.
Xev, Xev of B3K, join us in our song!
After all, a thousand years isn't very long!
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#16
Zagor Wrote:Maybe, but even then it would have taken both of them. Neither one lasted too long in a one-on-one.

Agreed, that's why I gave the caveat of "if Anakin had not been treading on the Dark Side". :bg:

Quote:They managed to just about beat him in Ep 3, but Dooku did a lot better against Obi-Wan and Anakin than Anakin did agaisnt Obi-Wan alone.

Which is interesting, isn't it? Dooku pretty much backhanded Obi-wan, Anakin held his own for a bit, but was clearly not in the right mind-set to confront the Sith. This would suggest that Anakin, in full Sith mode should have been more than a match for Obi-wan, and yet Obi-wan was quite capable during the fight. <shrug>
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#17
RobRoy Wrote:Second, when Obi-wan suggests, "That boy is our last hope", Yoda states that isn't true, he says, "No, there is another." So that if Luke fails, another hope can still be found. The suggestion has generally been taken to mean Leia, but does not necessarily have to be her. We know from the EU that there are other untrained Force users running around the Universe. It's possible that Yoda may have had alternative plans laid of which Obi-wan knew nothing. The counter-Leia argument is weak, I'll grant, but Yoda is clearly not of the opinion that everything rides on Luke. Although, given how much time Yoda had left, and that Leia had absolutely no training whatsoever, I'm uncertain what Yoda meant to accomplish if Luke failed and was killed or turned.

I always felt that placing a last hope on Leia would have been a huge gamble.

Luke may have been old, but he had grown up in a protective environment and so his mind was still largely unpolluted by worldly things, politics and such. Leia on the other hand, though definitely doing all she could to help the good side, was very much a politician with firm ideas about what should be done and how it should be done and I find it difficult to picture here submitting to Yoda and his teachings and laying all the haste and intrigues of the outer world aside.

Also, although they are twins, I always felt that mentally, Leia was older and maturer than Luke, at least before Luke's training. This would have made her far more difficult to train.

Quite besides which, I'm probably wrong but cannot now think of any other female Jedi.
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#18
deleted because of accidental duplicate
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#19
shadowfax Wrote:Quite besides which, I'm probably wrong but cannot now think of any other female Jedi.

There's quite a few in the prequels albeit I don't think any of them speak.
Xev, Xev of B3K, join us in our song!
After all, a thousand years isn't very long!
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#20
RobRoy Wrote:Which is interesting, isn't it? Dooku pretty much backhanded Obi-wan, Anakin held his own for a bit, but was clearly not in the right mind-set to confront the Sith. This would suggest that Anakin, in full Sith mode should have been more than a match for Obi-wan, and yet Obi-wan was quite capable during the fight. <shrug>

Perhaps there was a tiny bit of Anakin still in him stuggling to fight Obi-Wan. I only say this because there was dread after he murdered the Separtist leaders and knew the confrontation with Obi-Wan is coming. I only say that because of hearing Lucas' commentary.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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