Happy Potter and the (7th book title)
#21
They've set a release date, late July, the 22 I think.
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#22
Thanks for the update, Darq Ali! I just checked JKR's official site and it say the 21st of July. July is going to be a very big HP month.

I've been thinking some more about the meaning of Deathly Hallows. I came across http://www.hp-lexicon.org and as I was browsing their site I saw on their page for Book 7 that in the Middle Ages saints would preserve themselves in relics they would call "hallows." That got me to wondering if perhaps the title is in reference not to a place, but to the Horcruxes in which Voldemort placed parts of his soul and which Harry will be attempting to destroy in Book 7.
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#23
Niphredil Wrote:I've been thinking some more about the meaning of Deathly Hallows. I came across http://www.hp-lexicon.org and as I was browsing their site I saw on their page for Book 7 that in the Middle Ages saints would preserve themselves in relics they would call "hallows." That got me to wondering if perhaps the title is in reference not to a place, but to the Horcruxes in which Voldemort placed parts of his soul and which Harry will be attempting to destroy in Book 7.

And following that logic allowed me to do some additional digging:

As stated, hallows can refer to the saints relics. They can also refer to saints themselves or the relics of heathen gods. In both the Christian/Catholic tradition and the "pagan" or "heathen" tradition, a relic could be anything held in a holy, sacred or mystical light. Thus bones are the obvious relic, but so too are personal possessions like clothes, jewelry, tools, weaponry, etc.

In the Christian tradition, hallows had a critical place in the Grail Legend (cup that Christ used during the Last Supper and which reported caught His blood as the crucifixion). The Fisher King / Wounded King is the last traditional guard of Four Hallows: the Grail, the serving stone, the sword, and the spear.

Interestingly, this is almost directly connected with the four treasures of the Tuatha de Danaan, legendary Irish inhabitants sometimes treated as gods of Ireland, and sometimes simply historic kings and leaders. These treasures are: a chalice (Grail), a baton (wand or spear), a pentacle (serving stone), and a sword.

This, even more interestingly, relates directly to the Potter-verse. Gryffindor's sword, Hufflepuff's cup or chalice and Slytherin's locket (pentacle). In keeping with this concept and parallel, this might mean that Ravenclaw's "hallow" is wand (or perhaps, but less likely, a spear).
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#24
Excellent research Nip! I wonder if you might be right about that. Given RR's tidbits, I would be willing to bet that you are. We don't have much longer to wait to find out.
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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#25
Rob - Wow. That's really interesting! I don't know what else to say. That's a really interesting connection, especially if the Ravenclaw possession turns out to be her wand (or perhaps she did carry a spear, or some sort of staff?). I wonder if that's been JKR's plan? She did, after all, work in the legend of Nicolas Flamel... yes indeed, very interesting.

Gee - Thanks! I know we only have six months to wait but it still seems like a long time.
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#26
Good research Niph and RR! I am convinced that Hallows refers to the horcruxes now.
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#27
No question but what it fits.

There is alot of Christian myth in the HBP books as well as references to almost every ancient myth/system. Except American, of course, which JKR openly despises, bless her.

I just hope Harry isn't the "christ" figure.
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#28
Darq Ali Wrote:There is alot of Christian myth in the HBP books as well as references to almost every ancient myth/system. Except American, of course, which JKR openly despises, bless her.

I wasn't aware of that. Has she made any statement as to why?

Quote:I just hope Harry isn't the "christ" figure.

Harry could just as easily be a Mithras-figure or a Ganesh-figure or Enkidu-figure. The concept of dying for the salvation of others is older than Christ. He wasn't the first to do it, He just had better PR. Confusedtorm:

On the other hand, almost every culture holds such sacrifices as being of the highest order and worthy of great praise, so I fail to see much wrong with a link to a Christ-figure.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#29
I don't recall any specific statements of JKR re American culture and so on; and I don't read a whole lot of such things on purpose. However, I know she has been totally adamant that all actors in the films be 'not American'. Now, I don't follow any actor persons. Not my thing. But it seems to me the people in the films are British, Irish, whatever, but not American.

The United States and the Americas in general get very scant reference in the HBP stories, and the few passing references are neutral or negative. In the scene where Harry first comes to realize that the Wizarding community is much larger than that he is familiar with in Great Britian, many different wizarding communities are shown [this is in the scene where Harry, Hermionie and the Weasley family are at the campground awaiting the Quidditch World Cup]. The only references to the Americas is a passing note about "the Salem Witches Institute"; referencing a colonial era incident [pre-United States] when many real life "accused witches" were hanged. Later in the same story, other Wizarding schools are referenced ......... both European, with no references to anyone from North, South or Central America. Not even any students appear at any school who are from either American continant, though we have references to Africa, Asia, Egypt, and so forth.

When Ron tells Harry about a pen-pal one of his borthers had, it is a person from South America {Brazil, I think, though I'm not certain} and they became unhappy when an invitation to visit was declined, and sent a cursed hat that made his ears shrivel up; a negative reference. The boa Harry set free in the first book was said to be a native of Brazil, though that one had never been there; the most passing of references to the Americas, neutral at best.

I find no reason for all of this, for certainly, the Americas play a very large role on the world stage; but again, I have read that JKR has a very deep anti-American stripe, and what we've seen in all six HP books seems to reflect this ....... she pretty much ignores the Americas in general and the US in particular; references are almost nil, and are neutral to negative, never positive.

The native Americans have great legends and traditions concerning magic. If one can reference Ancient Rome, Greece, and Egypt; all of Europe; mention Africa and have 'Chinese Fireball' dragons, one would think that traditions from the Americas might find reference too. They don't. I doubt JKR is ignorant, so I think the idea that she is 'down on' all things American is pretty valid.

But if you want a reference to a specific article or interview to back this view, sorry, I have none.

No, there is nothing "wrong with" having sacrificial figures in any story. Indeed, they are common to many myths. You reference Mithris: The Roman Sun God. And yes, he pre-dates Jesus; and many of the "stories" and traditions Christians now attribute to Jesus are remakes of Mithris' story. Including the date of Dec 25 as a birth date and the shepherds in the field and all that, now part of "Christmas".

I have already gone on record as saying, I was in hope Harry wasn't going to be a "sacrificial" Hero, however, and given my reasons why. The six books we have in Harry's unfolding tale are already full of Human Sacrifices, including Harry's parents, Sirius and Dumbledore; so I fail to see why the story needs another. And I have given my reasons why I feel this way.

But is is JKR's tale to tell, not mine.
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#30
Darq Ali Wrote:But if you want a reference to a specific article or interview to back this view, sorry, I have none.

No, no. No worries. Your evidence is enough support of such. I wasn't decrying or challenging your statement. I just wondered if she'd every spoken out as to her reasoning for such a position, or been questioned in that regard.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#31
Thank you. I have read somewhere that JKR is rather anti-American, I know that I have, but couldn't say where. I do think the HP series bears this out, as well as the absence of any American actors in the HP films to date.

Were this not so, American magical traditions might have found some role.

American traditions have, for example, wonderous stories about giants. Paul Bunyon, Pecos Bill, Mike Fink, John Henry. I would think perhaps American Giants, who seem to have a rather more cordial relationship with non-magical folk than European Giants seem to have forged, might find a role in aiding the "good" members of the wizarding community in establishing a laison with Europe's few remaining Giants. For example.

Or, Brother Coyote might find some role in working with the werewolves.

But no.
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#32
I will not pretend to say that I have read as much as you probably have as far as articles go (and believe me, as a relatively new fan who has read very little of what is out there, I do not mean that sarcastically). However, I have my suspicions that this may simply be a case where the media has taken a statement and completely run away with it, and I am willing to give JKR the benefit of the doubt.

I have looked up some old articles on the pre-production/casting of Sorcerer's Stone, and seen one in particular where it was said that the cast would definitively be British; I also read that Steven Spielberg, had he procured the rights to direct the first two movies, would have cast Haley Joel Osment in the lead role as Harry. As JKR is British, the characters she created are British, the setting in which she imagined them is British, and the majority of the story takes place in Britain (with passing references to other places, including some to America), I can certainly understand that she would want people of British nationality to play characters of British nationality in the films (although I'm sure Kevin Costner would have made a lovely Snape). That also holds true for non-British characters; Stanislav Ianevski, a Bulgarian, plays Viktor Krum... a Bulgarian.

I suppose all I'm saying is that I do not think the absence, or rather, the limited appearance, of American actors or characters in a primarily British/European story automatically constitutes a particular dislike on JKR's part. But you are of course entitled to your opinion, and as you said it is JKR's tale to tell.
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#33
Well, of course, British people are "natural" to play British people.

But it seems to me that the British accept actors from other places playing some roles. Such as Mel Gibson playing a Scots person in "Braveheart". He is Australian, is he not?

Americans have embrased many actors/actresses from all over the globe. They may play American characters, and I have never heard one murmer of complaint. Actors/actresses from England, Ireland, and Australia are very common in American cinima. I never heard anyone complaining that Errol Flynn should not be employed playing in American films because he was from Tasmania, for example.

While it may seem most natural for people from a particular country to play roles set in that country, there is no reason to suppose that has to be the case. Most especially when the roles are "fantasy", for we have no real witches or wizards of the type JKR depicts in this world; they inhabit Potterverse, not present day Great Britian. And if actors were limited to playing only their own kind, we could never have a film about ancient Rome (for example), could we? Kind of hard to find a real life Centurian today. But Russel Crowe did a pretty good job, come to think of it. And he wasn't even Italian, much less an ancient Roman born in Spain, right?

If "no Americans need apply", that is prejudice. The numbers of nonAmericans working in American cinima should demonstrate that.
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#34
Perhaps Americans go to their own wizard school. Are there any French students at Hogwarts? German? If not, perhaps students of each country go to schools in their own country.

It makes sense to me to cast British children for a British school. The accents would be more natural, and special training for the children to learn another accent would not be needed.
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#35
Children in general can pick up accents quicker than adults, especially really young children since they are, if you think about it, still learning to talk. But many people of any age can mimic accents well. James Marsters and Alexis Denisof are good examples of American actors with flawless British accents. I didn't hear any complaints about Elijah Wood's and Sean Austin's accents in LOTR. (Sorry Nip, but Kevin Costner is not one of those people, in case you've forgotten about his attempt at Robin Hood.)

Still, I have no problem with JKR prefering British actors to play British characters. I would have a problem if she's anti-American but as there's really no way to prove that, I will give her the benefit of the doubt as well. After all, Christopher Columbus is an American. Alfonso Cuaron is from Mexico City. It would be odd for someone who is anti-American to trust the first three HP movies to an American and a Mexican.
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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#36
Darq Ali: Regarding Mel Gibson: Yes and no. He was actually born in New York, USA, and then moved to Australia when he was around ten or eleven.

All I was trying to say is that the absence of American actors does not automatically make these films or their makers anti-American, and that I have no problem with them not casting many Americans. I did not suggest that only British actors should play British characters, or only American actors should play American characters, etc., or that actors be "limited to playing only their own kind." Please do not put words in my mouth.

Personally I would much prefer that filmmakers cast actors who would best suit the characters (as I think they have done in the HP movies), rather than trying to satisfy the politically correct whim of the day. As far as I know there is no rule that a certain percentage of every nationality/race/religion/gender/etc. must be present in every movie, or am I mistaken?

I do agree that "No Americans need apply" would indeed be prejudiced. However, just because there were no Americans cast in the lead roles does not mean Americans did not participate in the making of these movies in any other capacities, or that Americans were immediately turned away at casting sessions; of course I cannot say for certain, as I wasn't there.


Arcadia: I agree, Americans would most likely have their own wizarding schools, as would other countries. It just so happens that in the HP books, those schools are not the focus.


Gee: Good point about children being quick to pick up accents.

Regarding Kevin Costner: As a matter of fact I do remember his portrayal of Robin Hood, and it was exactly that which prompted me to make the sarcastic (guess I should have pointed that out) remark about him playing Snape. :wink: I wouldn't dream of having anyone but Alan Rickman in that role. He totally owns it. Heart

Regarding All-the-wonderful-actors-and-actresses-out-there-who-do-good-foreign-accents: I wasn't trying to deny that any exist. There are loads of great actors out there, including the ones you listed, Gee, who are among my favorites.
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#37
Well, if there was an American wizarding school.....where might it be? :crazy:
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#38
Liriodendron Wrote:Well, if there was an American wizarding school.....where might it be? :crazy:

Area 51

:wicked:
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#39
Liriodendron Wrote:Well, if there was an American wizarding school.....where might it be? :crazy:

I would suggest Salem or Sleepy Hallow, or another such place of historical interest.
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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#40
Location of an American Wizarding School:

New Orleans, of course.

To clarify:

I am a citizen of the U.S. and Hitler would have called me a "mongrel American"; my heritage is rather mixed.

But most of my ancestors who migrated to the Americas came from various points on the British Isles, specifically, England itself, Ireland, and Cornwall. Most of my ancestry is Celt. As the most recent of my immegrant forbears was my paternal grandfather, I am aware of, and some of my family is in regular touch with, "cousins" several times removed who still reside in Cornwall. I know a great deal of family history back to the 1600's, including that of those who left England to come to America long before it was the U.S.

My heritage is from the same roots as JKR's. I have an interest in and read a lot about that part of the world.

I know my country isn't very popular overseas due to modern events and politics, but then, some elements of the British government do some unpopular things, too, and I don't hold the populace of that nation responsible.

Again, I have read some "anti-american" statements from JKR; and what she has written ......... and left out of .......... the HP books bears this out. Many countries other than England are often mentioned; and people of many races are included. I know full well today's Great Britian hosts a very mixed populace, and the students of Hogwarts school reflects this, with Black and India/Indian, Scots and Irish students and so forth playing at least secondary roles and having many, many references. Harry's first love interest is ......"Cho Chang", not exactly of English extraction; and so on. Other nations and continants recieve lesser but common notice, too.

Not so the Americas. I have listed the handful of references and noted they are so scant as to be almost non-existant; and at very best, neutral, otherwise negative. I am well aware that England ruled India, Hong Kong, and Egypt; has swallowed formerally independant kingdoms of Ireland and Scotland {and Wales and Cornwall and so on}. But the Americas were major colonies, too; and no one seems to have an American or Canadian cousin, and that is rather odd, seeing how we manage to have characters from France, and even Bulgaria, of all places!

When you consider that much of Europe is often referenced, as well as Egypt/Africa and even Asia, the utter absence of all the Americas is rather glaring.

As for the actors playing "natural" roles, then I suppose I should consider it "unnatural" whenever anyone other than a native born American plays any role in American cinima? Yet I never have once considered that. Either a person is suited to the role and plays it well, or they do not; and if they do a good, convincing job ............. that's why they call it "acting", because none of these people actually exist.

Ah, well. I am re-thinking my loyalty to the lands of my ancestors. I gather it was very misplaced.

Fleur is fun as being very French but I see no reason she could not have been from New Orleans; for there resides a tradition of witchcraft and dangerous women not found in France, still speaking French and of French extraction. Or Hati, for that matter; a much richer past. And I doubt JKR is unaware of that. Any more than she is unaware of America's rich tradition in the legends of Giants.
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