Jonkara, were-riders, and Falconers
#1
In the previous Falconer stories written by P.M. Griffin Jonkara is definately of the Old Dark.

In "We, the Women" by Patricia Mathews (and in the afterword of the same book) Jonkara seems to be not quite so evil, in fact she seems much more akin to the Furies than anything else and it is indicated that she, along with the Great Falcon (whatever that is) were caught up in some darksome trap set by the male Falconers of old:
"Tell me, what do you know of the Great Falcon?"
...
"Jonkara-the great trap of the Dark-but it was flawed, flawed because men willed it so!) (403)

Was the Dark Falcon Temple set up by Falconers in the long forgotten past? What were they doing that far north? Though Griffin indicates in her second story that at least one of the Ghost Children knows Falconers I thought their exedus from their homeland was more recent.

In "We, the women" it also seems to be hinted that the were-riders and Falconers might be somehow related. 'The remaints of this once-noble people had fled the Waste, across the mountains and over the sea...' Arona...then said "It comes to me, Dame Witch, that their many-times great-grandchildren still roam the wastes...with the guardian spirit of their house-whether lion or mountain cat, bear or boar, wolf or fox, eagle or falcon, still painted on their shields, still defending them at need." The Witch had a sudden vision of a young-old man riding across the plains, a mountain lion painted on his shield, his man's form shadowed by the form of a great cat. Beside him rode a woman of her own pallid, dark-haired race...his companion and his wife. "I think they do," she said. "But their sisters are no more."
"I know," Arona answered, abstracted. "We are here." (146-147)

The tale of Warina Falconlady is very confusing. It seems to indicate that the Falconers were matriarchal before something set the men against the women, causing them to flee. It seems to indicate the barbarian invasion mentioned earlier.

Thoughts on this?
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#2
Slow down. I have to remember what you are referring to. Did some of the text get lost.

"In the previous Falconer stories" Previous to what.

As the Witch World evolved, different people put their mark on it.
There is a story that tells of a woman & a Falconer, who find the cave where the Evil woman made Falconer's afraid of their women.

In the way of Andre Norton's edited stories...... There is often another side to every story.

As for your quote from "We, the women" That seems to be a vision of [dratted memory, can't remember their names.] the couple in YEAR OF THE UNICORN A Were and his Witch wife. They never invaded the Falconer's territory.

From my memory, which is faulty, Falconers were a society with a Man and a Woman in charge (the tableau from the cave), but a woman brought the 'ruling house' down, and caused the Falconers to move away. At that time fear caused the men to segregate the women into villages.

At the time of most of the WW stories, the Falconers will be forced to move away from their mountain homes, and their society will be changed again.

I do not know if I have read WE THE WOMEN by Patricia Mathews. Is this an article or an entire book.... I will have to check my notes.

And I will have to look for that brain, I seem to have lost somewhere.

PS: I originally thought that this was going to be a question for P.M.Griffin.... I have her email address around someplace... I know I have her paper mail address.
Irene
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#3
Irene Wrote:Slow down. I have to remember what you are referring to. Did some of the text get lost.

Gah! Sorry, I got overexcited. The text isn't lost I just cut out parts of it rather than quoting whole pages of text. I'm working off of the third book in the Turning series On Wings of Magic.

Quote:"In the previous Falconer stories" Previous to what.

Previous to the story "We, the Women" in the other two Turning books. I've read Witch World, Web of the Witch World, and Year of the Unicorn. I've read a few others as well, but not recently and I don't really recall any others than Witch World and the two Turning books involving the Falconers to a large degree. If you can direct me to them I'd appreciate the help.

Quote:As the Witch World evolved, different people put their mark on it.
There is a story that tells of a woman & a Falconer, who find the cave where the Evil woman made Falconer's afraid of their women.

In the way of Andre Norton's edited stories...... There is often another side to every story.

Okay, I understand. If you happen to recall the story that tells of how they found the cave where the evil woman made the Falconers afraid I'd appreciate it.

Quote:As for your quote from "We, the women" That seems to be a vision of [dratted memory, can't remember their names.] the couple in YEAR OF THE UNICORN A Were and his Witch wife. They never invaded the Falconer's territory.

I know. What I meant was the text implied that the were-riders from Year of the Unicorn are, in fact, the many-times decendants of Falconers. I really don't see how that could be, but I suppose anything's possible.

Quote:From my memory, which is faulty, Falconers were a society with a Man and a Woman in charge (the tableau from the cave), but a woman brought the 'ruling house' down, and caused the Falconers to move away. At that time fear caused the men to segregate the women into villages.

Okay, again if you can remember the story this belonged to I'd greatly appreciate the help.

Quote:At the time of most of the WW stories, the Falconers will be forced to move away from their mountain homes, and their society will be changed again.

I understand. I think it would be interesting to explore what happens next. One thing that bothers me about the WW maps is that Seakeep is not placed on High Hallack. The Falconer's Eyrie was very clearly marked in prvious books and since it now seems to be in Seakeep and Ravenfield (?) I can't help but wonder why it wasn't marked.

Quote:I do not know if I have read WE THE WOMEN by Patricia Mathews. Is this an article or an entire book.... I will have to check my notes.

And I will have to look for that brain, I seem to have lost somewhere.

It happens. Please let me know what you find.

Quote:I originally thought that this was going to be a question for P.M.Griffin.... I have her email address around someplace... I know I have her paper mail address.

Well I definately wouldn't mind asking P.M. Griffin about this if you think she'd be willing to answer. I'm also very curious as to why she gave her Falconers silver and blue eyes, I was under the impression that they had amber eyes and red hair...

I can't help but think that if we were to compare the Falconers to a group in the real world I think they'd be very much like the Amish - except for their fear of women, of course.
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#4
No. The Falconers aren't anything like the Amish - who shun "the world". Falconers are very much a part of the Witch World society, which is pre-mechanical. [They have the wheel for carts, and nothing more technical than a dart gun or small cross bow.]

I'd have to do multiple readings to catch up with you. But you definitely need to refer to one of the several Witch World web sites. Michael - if you are out there - what is the best of these named?

OK - to start. The Maps, as published in the WW books, are dated. So, one set might be for 1970's, and doesn't include anything that is part of the WW history that was recorded after 1976, or whatever. Please note that there were always large areas of the WW that were blank canvas. Areas where future stories were to be told.

I never thought that the Falconers were decended from the Were-Brothers. The Weres did roam the world for a very long time before they were allowed to return to (Avalon? ah heck - whereever).

Just remember that most of the races on the WW came through gates (and sometimes left that way). The impression is that they came from alternate Earths, and were the same "human" stock, though mutated in different ways, each group with different affinities. My impression was always that the Falconers were one such group. But, I'm going to have to begin a long reading campaign to go through all of the WW books.

I think that you need to find TALES OF THE WITCH WORLD one, two and three, and check out the stories written by the people who tried to fill in the blank spaces on the canvas, and WARDING OF THE WITCH WORLD, in which Andre Norton tried to bind the loose ends together.
Irene
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#5
Irene Wrote:No. The Falconers aren't anything like the Amish - who shun "the world". Falconers are very much a part of the Witch World society, which is pre-mechanical. [They have the wheel for carts, and nothing more technical than a dart gun or small cross bow.]

It was a poor choice of comparison, I meant they are like the Amish in the fact they have bred only with one another over a long period of time so that their racial features are quite distinct.
I was under the impression that odd bits of other technologies were around - the lights of Es Castle, whatever the energy source of Sulcarkeep was, some of the weapons from Escore...

Quote:I'd have to do multiple readings to catch up with you. But you definitely need to refer to one of the several Witch World web sites. Michael - if you are out there - what is the best of these named?

Okay. I'll try and look some sites up, but help would definately be appreciated...

Quote:OK - to start. The Maps, as published in the WW books, are dated. So, one set might be for 1970's, and doesn't include anything that is part of the WW history that was recorded after 1976, or whatever. Please note that there were always large areas of the WW that were blank canvas. Areas where future stories were to be told.


I know. I don't mind blank areas because, like you say, they're places future stories can be told. But some of the more recent books still have things like the Falconer's Eyrie marked at the boarder even though it was presumably destroyed...

Quote:I never thought that the Falconers were decended from the Were-Brothers. The Weres did roam the world for a very long time before they were allowed to return to (Avalon? ah heck - whereever).

I didn't either. As I said, it's only an impression I got from "We, the Women" and it could be quite wrong.

Quote:Just remember that most of the races on the WW came through gates (and sometimes left that way). The impression is that they came from alternate Earths, and were the same "human" stock, though mutated in different ways, each group with different affinities. My impression was always that the Falconers were one such group. But, I'm going to have to begin a long reading campaign to go through all of the WW books.

Okay. Sorry if I'm being a pain.

Quote:I think that you need to find TALES OF THE WITCH WORLD one, two and three, and check out the stories written by the people who tried to fill in the blank spaces on the canvas, and WARDING OF THE WITCH WORLD, in which Andre Norton tried to bind the loose ends together.

Will do, thanks!
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