Tell me how would you have Vader react at the end of Episode III?
#1
Okay, one of the biggest complaints or criticisms I've heard is Vader's reaction to hearing Padme is dead and he killed her. Yes, the "NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

What I want to know is how would you have him react to hearing or learning this?
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#2
Perhaps showing that he doesn't care at all would've been good, finishing off the fact that he is no longer Ani but is now Vader.

Darth Pechark
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General Grievous is a whole lot easier to say.
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#3
I think the No! was a good line, but it should have been said differently. With more passion and distress. Though it is difficult to show distress if you've got a black mask on your face.
Don't know, really.
May the Force be with you (and with me)
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#4
Pechark Wrote:Perhaps showing that he doesn't care at all would've been good, finishing off the fact that he is no longer Ani but is now Vader.

Darth Pechark

NO, it's called Irony!!- He BECAME Vader, so she WOULDn't die, not so HE would be the one who KILLS her!!

The "No!!" was a reaction to THAT news.

But, THat's my opinion!!
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#5
mary Pribble Wrote:NO, it's called Irony!!- He BECAME Vader, so she WOULDn't die, not so HE would be the one who KILLS her!!

The "No!!" was a reaction to THAT news.

But, THat's my opinion!!
It's already clearly ironic, you don't need the 'NOOOOOO' to show any more.

Darth Pechark
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Qyemjai-
Qum-
K-
General Grievous is a whole lot easier to say.
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#6
Pechark Wrote:It's already clearly ironic, you don't need the 'NOOOOOO' to show any more.

Darth Pechark

Dude, He didn't KNOW what happened to her, until he GOT told. And, as he Still had some "feelings" left, he "reacted".


Besides, he got Lied to, as we all know, but how WOULD you feel if all your efforts were "meaningless", betray your friends, kill innocents, so YOUR LOVED ones don't get hurt. ANd have it happen anyway!!


NOOOO -pretty much sums it up!!
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#7
mary Pribble Wrote:Dude, He didn't KNOW what happened to her, until he GOT told. And, as he Still had some "feelings" left, he "reacted".


Besides, he got Lied to, as we all know, but how WOULD you feel if all your efforts were "meaningless", betray your friends, kill innocents, so YOUR LOVED ones don't get hurt. ANd have it happen anyway!!


NOOOO -pretty much sums it up!!
What I mean is is that it's already clearly ironic to the audience, they don't need a corny, cheesy and hollywoodised NOOOOOOOOOO! to show it any further. If Vader had to show that he was upset, NOOOOOOOOOO was the worst way to do it, it was badly cliched.

Darth Pechark
Qyma-
Qymoi-
Qyemjai-
Qum-
K-
General Grievous is a whole lot easier to say.
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#8
Pechark Wrote:What I mean is is that it's already clearly ironic to the audience, they don't need a corny, cheesy and hollywoodised NOOOOOOOOOO! to show it any further. If Vader had to show that he was upset, NOOOOOOOOOO was the worst way to do it, it was badly cliched.

Darth Pechark

Otay,

You have just DESTROYED the Jedi Knights, killed lots of children whose ONLY crime was they are "jedi's in training", betrayed your teacher/best friend. THe only reason you are doing this, is to "save" your beloved & your unborn kids.

You have just been told, YOU KILLED THEM, not the Jedi, not the "Dark Side" not the "clone army"; YOU, YOURSELF!!!

You have a "microgram" of humanity left; WITHOUT GOING HOLLYWOOD, react!!

(SEE the problem, yes the audience "knows", but until that second, you, the character DON"T.)
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#9
Sorry to get in the middle of your discussion guys, but I must say I agree with Pechark. I totally get what you say, Mary, it's true, the guy did loads of abominable stuff just to get Padme saved and then she dies anyway, so yes, he must have felt like hell! And it was OK that he reacted desperately. But as Pechark says, having him shout NOOOOOO! was probably not the best way to show his despair.
The thing is, I don't know what other way he could have reacted. We can't see Vader's face so he couldn't have cried or something, or show his distress through gestures. I don't know if crying would have made it any better. And what else could he have done? Faint? Clust his chest? Have an ashtma attack? Drop on his knees and curse? They all seem cheesy. I think that any human emotion is cheesy when Vader's the one showing it. He's almost a machine, for Heaven's sake!
May the Force be with you (and with me)
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#10
Doesn't Doc Ock react exactly the same way in Spiderman 2 when he wakes in hospital to see that his 'arms' have killed everyone. No one seems to mind that.

I'll admit it's a little cheesy but finding an alternative is difficult. Don't forget that he also wrecked the room with the force as well as screamin "No"
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#11
Skip the no, because the destruction of the entire room is powerful enough.
But some sort of oral reaction is necessary. I just don't know what kind...
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#12
mary Pribble Wrote:Otay,

You have just DESTROYED the Jedi Knights, killed lots of children whose ONLY crime was they are "jedi's in training", betrayed your teacher/best friend. THe only reason you are doing this, is to "save" your beloved & your unborn kids.

You have just been told, YOU KILLED THEM, not the Jedi, not the "Dark Side" not the "clone army"; YOU, YOURSELF!!!

You have a "microgram" of humanity left; WITHOUT GOING HOLLYWOOD, react!!

(SEE the problem, yes the audience "knows", but until that second, you, the character DON"T.)
A debate you want, a debate you'll get >Big Grin

For Anakin's transformation to be complete, he must be completely engulfed in the dark side, no mercy left. Of course, we know this never happens due to Vader's final conversion. However, ROTS is a film to show the transformation of Anakin, and that must be shown. If Vader shows himself to have any more humanity left, then the point of the film is lost, it is to show that 'there is no hope left.'
Also, the character's feelings are important, but not as important as how the audience analyses and feels about the movie. It is clear already that everything is ironic, and (I am aware that I am repeating myself) they don't need a corny, cheesy, hollywoodised 'NOOOOOOOOOOO' to ruin the entire aspect of the film. When me and my sister saw that moment for the first time, we were bursting with supressed laughter for more or less the end of the film. Is that what that scene should do, bring laughter? No, Vader should've either had no feelings at all about it, (my preference) or had a more toned down form of sadness, perhaps a couple of panting, quiet 'no's and he leans himself against a wall or something, though that is not my preference, but it's better anyhow.

Ball's in your court, will you wack it back at me, or will you miss? Smile

Darth Pechark
Qyma-
Qymoi-
Qyemjai-
Qum-
K-
General Grievous is a whole lot easier to say.
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#13
I think Doc Ock got away with it because Spiderman 2 was such a cheesy film anyway. Anyway "NOOOOO" didn't work for me. A scream of rage while he satrts punching the wall or something may have worked better.
Xev, Xev of B3K, join us in our song!
After all, a thousand years isn't very long!
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#14
Han Solo Wrote:Okay, one of the biggest complaints or criticisms I've heard is Vader's reaction to hearing Padme is dead and he killed her. Yes, the "NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

What I want to know is how would you have him react to hearing or learning this?

Perhabs crying "Yeeeeeeeeeeesss!"?:fright:
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#15
Zagor Wrote:I think Doc Ock got away with it because Spiderman 2 was such a cheesy film anyway. Anyway "NOOOOO" didn't work for me. A scream of rage while he satrts punching the wall or something may have worked better.

NOOOO- doesn't count as a scream of rage??
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#16
Pechark Wrote:A debate you want, a debate you'll get >Big Grin

For Anakin's transformation to be complete, he must be completely engulfed in the dark side, no mercy left. Of course, we know this never happens due to Vader's final conversion. However, ROTS is a film to show the transformation of Anakin, and that must be shown.

***NO, there is a "point of no return"- a point where the "evil" you have done outweighs ANY good you may still do. ANd, a realization of "when" this 'moment' occurs. "NOOOOO", is "it". He's lost, there is no "justification" in Anakin/Vader's mind for what he has done, (but I'm "saving" her, that was his 'reason' for EVERYTHING he did. Her death, ESPECIALLY BY HIS HAND, erases all of that.)

If Vader shows himself to have any more humanity left, then the point of the film is lost, it is to show that 'there is no hope left.'


*****THere IS some hope left, otherwise, why "save" Luke in VI,- (yes, technically, we are getting WAY ahead of ourselves), so DEEP INSIDE a scrap of humanity remains. He(Vader) can't access it(the scrap) YET, so, he had best live the life he has left.





Also, the character's feelings are important, but not as important as how the audience analyses and feels about the movie. It is clear already that everything is ironic, and (I am aware that I am repeating myself) they don't need a corny, cheesy, hollywoodised 'NOOOOOOOOOOO' to ruin the entire aspect of the film. When me and my sister saw that moment for the first time, we were bursting with supressed laughter for more or less the end of the film.

****I wasn't, but everyone has an opinion, and should be free to express it.


Is that what that scene should do, bring laughter? No, Vader should've either had no feelings at all about it, (my preference) or had a more toned down form of sadness, perhaps a couple of panting, quiet 'no's and he leans himself against a wall or something, though that is not my preference, but it's better anyhow.

******NO, crime is TOO big, for a few remorseful, "oh no"s-He messed up BIG TIME!!-and THE emperor knows it, (did you notice the grin as Vader destroys the room. He KNOWS Vader has NOWHERE else to go!)

Ball's in your court, will you wack it back at me, or will you miss? Smile

****(volleyed back, so your turn!!)

Darth Pechark

Look for the ***- posted goofy AGAIN!!
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#17
I can imagine Padme accepting Vader who wants her to be together to rule the galaxy. Padme should have pretended - tricked Vader into believing that she wants him no matter what evil he had done. She would take Vader back home where a trap waits for him using the force shield prison or something that stops from using his dark power to escape. A beautiful woman Padme is. Her ignorance costed her life.:fright: What a waste.
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#18
mary Pribble Wrote:NOOOO- doesn't count as a scream of rage??

I suppose, but I was thinking more of a wordless scream.
Xev, Xev of B3K, join us in our song!
After all, a thousand years isn't very long!
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#19
Zagor Wrote:I suppose, but I was thinking more of a wordless scream.


Tough to do with a mask over your face!!(Audience can't see facial expression!!)

Oh, my bad, you mean like an "AAAAAUGH"- Also very Hollywood!!
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#20
mary Pribble Wrote:Look for the ***- posted goofy AGAIN!!
We're gonna kill this thread, you and me, I'm sure of it...

Your first comment: I dunno what that has in relevance to what it is 'contridicting.' Please elaborate.

Your second comment: You're right, there IS hope left, but the point is is that it must be shown that there ISN'T, when we come to Ep. 4, there is an idea that 'there is no more hope' at the start; the Empire have taken over.

Your third comment: Yes, everyone's entitled to an opinion, thankyou.

Your fourth comment: A fair point, and I will back down there, because you're right, but I've thought of a new one, how about Vader trashes the place with his lightsaber? To me, that's plausible and cool.

*thwock* it hits the wall, comes back and...<your turn>

Darth Pechark
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Qyemjai-
Qum-
K-
General Grievous is a whole lot easier to say.
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