The Matrix Trilogy (And The Animatrix.)
#1
The Matrix destroys other movies. Discuss! Confusedhades:

:wave:
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#2
Seriously? What are we basing this on? Box office? General appeal? Longevity?

I think I could name several other movies who's box office, general appeal and longevity defeat The Matrix trilogy.

Perhaps if you had something more to go on?
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#3
Ummm, ok, I guess I'm that THE ONLY ONE who didn't liked this whole Matrix thing at all...
After watching first 15 min of the first movie, I've had enough and didn't want to see the rest Smile
Well, again..it's just my strange taste for movies.
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#4
Hehe I was just kidding around. But seriously, the brothers mixed martial arts, religion, philosophy, math, comic book stuff etc together and created what is probably the most intellectual and coolest movie series ever made. After almost every other movie is over, there is not much left to talk about other than, "remember that scene, that was cool." Most movies are obvious and dumb, and that is why it will take a while before the Matrix is really appreciated for what it is, a brilliant mindbender, a work of art, because people are used to the dumbo movies. If requested, I can list some of the works that influenced the W's in the making of the Matrix.

Peace :poke:

[url=http://www.matrix-explained.com][/url]
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#5
GhostTrax Wrote:Hehe I was just kidding around. But seriously, the brothers mixed martial arts, religion, philosophy, math, comic book stuff etc together and created what is probably the most intellectual and coolest movie series ever made.

I'll agree that the first movie did this. However, only the first movie acheived any depth. The second two movies, and we've held in-depth discussions on this very forum, failed completely to carry on the atmosphere and promise of the first. To that end, there are any number of movie series which have done a much, much better job of carrying on the job of the world created by the first, and seemingly ground-breaking movie.

However, discussing the first movie, we could easily call to mind the quasi-religious and comic-book esque techno-thriller Bladerunner as, in my opinion, a better movie than The Matrix. To compete with The matrix we should not easily dismiss Star Wars. While I dislike the prequels, the original trilogy easily meets your criteria. Box office alone dwarfs The Matrix and its sequels.

Other movies that fullfill this requirement as similar in scope and "intellectural and coolest" along a "reality" genre would include:

Dark City
Donnie Darko
2001: A Space Oddessy
12 Monkeys
Jacob's Ladder
Flatliners

Quote:After almost every other movie is over, there is not much left to talk about other than, "remember that scene, that was cool."

Interesting. I'm not certain what movies you're watching, but I've found a good many more movies that are quite impressive in scope, scale and message and which lend themselves to a greater discussion than "remember that scene."

Every one of the above films certainly falls into that category, and I can certainly add a number of others that are not within the "science fiction" or "reality bending" genres:

Being John Malkovich
Fight Club
Lord of the Rings
The Terminator
Spring, Summer, Winter, Fall . . . and Spring
The Prophecy
Mullholland Drive
Casablanca
Citizen Kane
China Town
Lawrence of Arabia
Spartacua
Dr. Zhivago
The Fiddler on the Roof
Rear Window
12 Angry Men
Cool Hand Luke
Rain Man
Philidelphia
The Cider House Rules
Snow Falling on the Cedars
The Shawshank Redemption
Punch-Drunk Love
Lost in Translation
Ghost World
Amelie
Before Sunrise and the sequel Before Sunset
Edward Scissorhands
What's Eating Gilbert Grape
Michael Collins
The Committments
Trainspotting
Dogma
Clerks.

And these are just a few off the top of my head.

Regardless of if you loved or hated, of don't even care about these films, likely there is something within each one of the above that can be discussed in some depth, and at least to the depth of The Matrix or beyond.

Quote:Most movies are obvious and dumb, and that is why it will take a while before the Matrix is really appreciated for what it is, a brilliant mindbender, a work of art, because people are used to the dumbo movies.

I would tend to agree that the majority of "big" movies, action movies, Jerry Bruckheimer-summer-popcorm flicks are "obvious and dumb". But to categorize "most movies" as you have into the same category is to overlook an incredible wealth of films that have lent themselves not only to the concept of movies as art, but also the entire mosiac of our culture. Science fiction like The Day the Earth Stood Still and Forbidden Planet have given themselves over to Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek, which is probably the longest lived, most successful and most influential movies series of all time. Other films, even of the "dumb" category have turned independent film makers like Quentin Tarrentino (Pulp Fuction) and Kevin Smith (Clerks.) into large-scale movie makers and influential directors in their own right. Martin Scorsese has claimed to have been heavily influenced by Alfred Hitchcock[/i]. Who can today deny Scorsese's influence on other film-makers?

So again, I would ask, by what criteria are you measuring all other films and coming up with the end result of The Matrix series being the best? Is it box office grosses? It is fan base? Is it longevity? Is it consitency in story telling? Is it the number of sources that it draws from? In order to have a valid discussion we'll need to understand you basis for making these ultimate claims.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#6
RobRoy Wrote:I'll agree that the first movie did this. However, only the first movie acheived any depth. The second two movies, and we've held in-depth discussions on this very forum, failed completely to carry on the atmosphere and promise of the first.

Well then you have really missed something, because Reloaded and Revolutions went deeper down the rabbit hole than M1. And all three of them together is just...gahh, so beautiful. Maybe you should listen to the commentary tracks on all three movies, by Cornel West and Ken Wilber, it would make you understand the movies better, they have some really interesting things to say. And I have never heard of philosophy students saying to their teacher that he/she must see the lord of the rings. On the other hand, I have heard several times that philosophy students, after starting to read Descartes and Plato for example, have made their teachers watch the Matrix, as it deals with some of the things they were talking about, Platos allegory of the cave, or Descartes evil deciever. And I gave the Matrix as homework to my psychology teacher, because everything we have talked about so far is in the Matrix trilogy. The intellectual content in the movies is what keeps people talking about them, it is what keeps them interesting, and because of the intellectual content a certain kind of people will be attracted to the Matrix, the ones who are willing think, about reality, about life, about the reason we are here, if there is a reason at all, if we have have free will etc, the red pills.

Almost everytime I watch the movies I find something that I didn't notice before. And in my opinion, of course, it is visually the hottest thing out there,and I love the Kung Fu overload, since I am a Kung Fu man myself. And if a movie makes a gazillion dollars, who cares, I'm guessing Revenge of the sith did good, but it still sucks donkeys.

The Matrix trilogy is a deep, mindblowing work of art, but it is hard to see that when you haven't even climbed into the rabbit hole yet. :poke:

And basis shmasis, it is what it is. Au revoir. :chinese:
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#7
GhostTrax Wrote:Well then you have really missed something, because Reloaded and Revolutions went deeper down the rabbit hole than M1.

The fact that I did not find Reloaded and Revolutions as appealing does not mean that I have missed anything. The failure is not necessarily on the part of the audience member, just because you believe it to be so.

For example, kindly refer to this highly excellent discussion regarding a comparison of The Matrix with 2001: A Space Oddessy.

I took the position, for the sake of argument alone, that The Matrix was the better movie. I still do not believe that, but I think my understanding of the movie and that of the others who participated, is clearly shown. The argument, however, did not change our opinions of The Matrix as the bar by which all other movies should henceforth be measured.

A second discussion showed that most members of this forum agreed that the second and third movies were not worth the effort. Though that's only an opinion.

Quote:And all three of them together is just...gahh, so beautiful.

On a personal level, you are more than entitled to your opinion, as am I. For me, the second and third movies missed the boat entirely on what could have been an impressive psychological ride. I find it unfortunate that the Wachowski brothers, instead of digging deeper, bottomed out and with for the quick and the cheap thrill-ride.

Quote:Maybe you should listen to the commentary tracks on all three movies, by Cornel West and Ken Wilber, it would make you understand the movies better, they have some really interesting things to say.

Listened to them. Didn't change my opinion.

Quote:And I have never heard of philosophy students saying to their teacher that he/she must see the lord of the rings.

Perhaps you haven't been listening then. The body of work that has been written on and about The Lord of the Rings is quite vast. Jackson did a decent enough job of keeping the major themes intact that the movies can be reviewed in the same light (generally) as the text. There are whole courses taught on The Lord of the Rings. I'm sure they may be courses taught on The Matrix as well.

This does not render either movie superior in my opinion, nor does it render both of them superior to any of the other movies I mentioned above.

Quote:The intellectual content in the movies is what keeps people talking about them, it is what keeps them interesting, and because of the intellectual content a certain kind of people will be attracted to the Matrix, the ones who are willing think, about reality, about life, about the reason we are here, if there is a reason at all, if we have have free will etc, the red pills.

Again, personal opinion.

Quote:The Matrix trilogy is a deep, mindblowing work of art, but it is hard to see that when you haven't even climbed into the rabbit hole yet. :poke:

More personal opinion. A disagreement with that opinion does not mean that the individual is any more or less interested in the concepts than you are. Movies are what they are. The appeal may or may not be to the same two people in the same way. That does not mean that your opinion is any more or less valid than mine, or anyone elses.

Quote:And if a movie makes a gazillion dollars, who cares, I'm guessing Revenge of the sith did good, but it still sucks donkeys . . .

And basis shmasis, it is what it is. Au revoir. :chinese:
If you wish to have a discussion based on your perceptions that one movies is superior to another, then there must be some bar, some definition of what makes one movie better than another. I did not say that box office take was that bar.. I asked what your bar was. I provided box office take as one of many potential means of comparison, since you have provided none.

As the philosophical student that you claim to be, in order to compare two things, there must be a basis for that comparison. Otherwise, we can count apples and oranges all day, and end up with nothing better than a pile of apples and a pile of oranges. I'm more than willing to take in your argument, but I have yet to see by what standard you are measuring The Matrix trilogy against any other movie . . . ever.

To that end, your comments seem to be nothing more than personal opinion, which you are more than entitled to. But for the basis of a discussion, an argument, a way of comparing and contrasting movies, your opinion remains only that. As you so eloquently put it, your opinon "is what is is." It therefor holds no more or less weight than anyone elses.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#8
GhostTrax Wrote:Maybe you should listen to the commentary tracks on all three movies, by Cornel West and Ken Wilber, it would make you understand the movies better, they have some really interesting things to say.


I think that is the ultimate fan argument for a weak movie. "But you need to see the commentary." Somebody suggested that I needed to see the DVD commentary on that steaming pile of excrement D&D the Movie before I could loathe it.

No, I don't.

If a movie couldn't hold its weight as a movie, the commentary doesn't help it as a movie. The film is the medium, and a film should be able to stand on just what is shown in the theater. If I give a crappy presentation, then say "well it's ufair to judge my presentation ithout hearing about my intent and experience of making it," that's a cop out.


Commentary and deleted scenes are gravy for fans. They are not evidence to convince non fans that they are wrong.
Wrestling Darwin on a daily basis.

"Question boldly even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, He must more approve of the homage of reason than that of a blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson
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#9
This was curious, how far back I had to go to find discussion of The Matrix.

Return to the Source 1
Return to the Source 2
Return to the Source 3
Return to the Source 4
Return to the Source 5
Return to the Source 6
Return to the Source 7
Return to the Source 8


The Matrix is kind of far beyond the "Kirk could kick Picard's a$s" people. Very little of Star Trek approaches the depth of The Matrix. Even in the above video they talk about LOGOS meaning 'WORD' which is what most Christians say, but it should be obvious that LOGOS is related to LOGIC. It is more than just the Word.

Morpheus was the Greek god of dreams but Nebudchadnezzar is famous for a dream interpreted by Daniel. The statue splitting in two at the legs represented the split of the Roman empire into east and west, the effects of which can still be seen in European culture and global politics today.

The Abyss is one of the few movies that is competiton for the Matrix trilogy. I'll have to do a search on that.

psikey
Vorlons are Vulcans on Zen
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