The Tactics at the Battle of Geonosis
#1
Ok. Before I start,Im going to remind u I'm no miliatary expert .

So. I've heard more than a few people remark that the tactics used by the clones were pretty unadvanced, as they pretty much just attacked the droids in one huge group.
But the way I look at it, it seems like thats was the only way they could've fought the battle. It looks like the sepratists just spaced the republic and the core ships by placing as many droids in one huge group in between them.Now, It seems to me that when the droids did that, there wouldnt be too many other options.
Does anyone agree?

Matt Confusedhades::paw::coffee:
And she said 'Hoots I cannae get back tae me hoos in Bonny Scotland'
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#2
i never questioned their tactics. like BOJ said, it was basically lotsa droids onone side , lotsa clones on the other, besides, they needed a pretty quick rescue mission that left little time for advanced planning. however the clones won that battle fairly quickly.
"It's like, how much more black could this be? And the answer is none. None more black."
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#3
Gwaihir the Windlord Wrote:i never questioned their tactics. like BOJ said, it was basically lotsa droids onone side , lotsa clones on the other, besides, they needed a pretty quick rescue mission that left little time for advanced planning. however the clones won that battle fairly quickly.

Actually, since the Jedi were all able to get into position in order to effect the rescue in the first place, this gave plenty of time for the clones to establish themselves into whatever strategic position they felt was most apt. Since it appears they only attacked on a single front, then (without any real combat training or strategic experience) I would have to agree that the battle plan of just meeting the Geonosians and the droid army head on, basically amounts to a slug-fest, with whoever can kill the other guy the fastest being the winner. Generally, that kind of strategy yeilds only a Pyrrhic victory.

I know there used to be a site that would review movies with military strategies and tactis, and give it a rating. I think someone on our forums used to do that as well, but for the life of me I can't find it.
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#4
When numbers are not a consideration, the attacking or defending army these films have had no tactics (ie Empire, Droid Army and Clone Army). Only when it's a smaller army against impossible odds is there a clear strategic goal in mind (Rebels in A New Hope, ROTJ and Naboo/Gungans in TPM).

That being said, the Clones just plain hit force with force though they were being led by Yoda.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#5
Han Solo Wrote:When numbers are not a consideration, the attacking or defending army these films have had no tactics (ie Empire, Droid Army and Clone Army). Only when it's a smaller army against impossible odds is there a clear strategic goal in mind (Rebels in A New Hope, ROTJ and Naboo/Gungans in TPM).

And I can see that as a strategy. Certainly, that was the strategy that was employed, and I would guess your logic is the same logic that was used (within the reality of the movie).

Outside of that (within our own reality) though, it doesn't make logical sense. If the Jedi had time to set up, then they provided a worthwhile distraction while the Clone Army could have set up any strategy they wanted. Meeting force head-on would end with a heavy loss of lives on both sides. For the Droid Army, that's really not a problem. For the Geonosians, however, that's different. The Clones might fall inbetween, but even a clone would have a sense of self-preservation. Lama Su mentioned that they modified the clones, but he stated they only made the clones "less independent . . . totally obedient." A worthwhile quality in a basic soldier. But they don't mention the removal of self-preservation, or even of watering this quality down. So I think it's fair to say they still had it. I believe Lama Su even mentioned they are superior to the droids because they are capable of independent thought.

So the strategy employed by the clones doesn't really make too much sense. The Geonosians and the Droid Army didn't have a choice. They were put on the defensive and could only react (the worst place to be in a battle). I suppose we could put it down to a lack of experience in combat. But I had thought that on Kamino we saw the clones being trained, exercised, etc. Certainly some education in strategy would be equally in order, wouldn't it? As such, even a two or three-pronged attack, and one on multiple levels (space bombardment, blockage, air-attack, feints and flank manuevers, etc.) would have yeiled a vastly superior victory under the conditions, right?
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#6
RobRoy Wrote:And I can see that as a strategy. Certainly, that was the strategy that was employed, and I would guess your logic is the same logic that was used (within the reality of the movie).

The Empire clearly used strength in numbers which is why their TIEs were never shielded. They simply overwhelmed you with numbers.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#7
The tactics in the prequels seem to be more primitive than that of the original Trilogy, not just the ground battles but in space as well.

In original RotJ, the Imperial and Rebel fleets started off quite distant. It was sort of like WW1 battleship tactics, with ships blasting away at a distance of miles with long-ranged weapons. It was only when there was no choice with Death Star 2 joining in that the Rebels fought close up with the Imperials.

The assault on Death Star 1 in ANH was more like WW2 Pacific fight, with small planes trying sink great ships, while their own base was out of range of their target.

The opening battle of Revenge of the Sith was fought extremely close-up, with short range broadsides, for heaven's sake... a throwback to the days of Admiral Nelson? Were the targeting computers that bad?



From what I've seen of ground battles in the prequels, nobody seems to understand the use of cover and fortified position (except Gungans with their shields... and when their great shield failed they had the good sense to run! Never say Gungans are stupid!) Even the Wookies of Kashykk stood up to meet the Trade Federation droids, when they had been taking cover! Everyone fought standing up!
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#8
The New Essential Guide to Vehicle and Vessels by W. Haden Blackman has layouts of the Battles of Naboo, Geonosis,Yavin, Hoth, and Endor, along with a brief explantion of it.
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#9
cool, did the book give any reasons or explanations of the tactics?

Matt Confusedhades::paw::coffee:
And she said 'Hoots I cannae get back tae me hoos in Bonny Scotland'
Girl with the Hazel Eyes - Ahhhhhh!
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#10
From the above mentioned book, page 183:

"...the clone army was fully trained and well equpied...The Battle of Geonosis was primarily a ground campaign. The Republic planned the attack as a sudden, overhelming assualt that would stamp out the Confederacy before it could gain more power. After penetrating the upper atmosphere with huge military assaul ships, the Republic dropped a fleet of gunshipsto the planet's surface. The transports carried thousands of clone troopers and dozens of AT-TE walkers. The army advanced on the Geonosin arena, where a Jedi strike team was surrounded, then attacked the core ships of the Trade Federation.
The Confederacy and its fierce Geonosian allies refused to surrender. Geonosian starfighters tried to stop the clone troopers, but the AT-TE walkers, gunships, and a handful of Jedi starfighters kept the Geonosians at bay. To counter the walkers and gunships, a variety of heavy assault platforms were rolled into position. Tank droids, hailfire units, and homing droids managed to slow the clone army temporarily, but the Jedi commanders spread their forces to flank the slow-moving droids. Reconnaissance troopers riding speeder bikes crisscrossed the battlefield, gathering vital information about enemy troop movements and capabilities.
Once the Confederacy leaders realized that the Republic would carry the day, the Trade Federation tried to launch several core ships to safety. The core ships contained an untold number of battle droids, weapons, and vehicles. Clone scouts spotted the core ships and warned Yoda and the other Jedi commanders. The Jedi knew that every core ship represented a small army; thus, destroying the vessels became a priority. The clone army rushed to reposition several powerful self-propelled heavy artillery units equipped with advanced turbolasers. The turbolasers, which recuired constant protection from gunships and AT-TE walkers, maneged to down at least one of the behemoth core ships, crippling the Confederacy's army."

The Clone Wars video game also shows there is much more going on than we see.
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#11
^ thats cool...^............
"It's like, how much more black could this be? And the answer is none. None more black."
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#12
Han Solo Wrote:The Empire clearly used strength in numbers which is why their TIEs were never shielded. They simply overwhelmed you with numbers.

I didn't realize that anything but the very large ships had any kind of sheilding device. Star Wars seems to make out that they require quite a bit of energy and so are encumbered by that problem.

Of course, a space-fairing ship wouldn't need to worry about size . . . so, the tactics still don't make sense to me.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#13
well it seems that the alliance, nubian and jedi delta 7 starfighters had shielding from what we see and hear in the films.

Matt Confusedhades::paw::coffee:
And she said 'Hoots I cannae get back tae me hoos in Bonny Scotland'
Girl with the Hazel Eyes - Ahhhhhh!
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#14
Boba,Obi Wan,Jango Wrote:well it seems that the alliance, nubian and jedi delta 7 starfighters had shielding from what we see and hear in the films.

Quote from the films please?

Also, please show where this is true for the original trilogy as well.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#15
The shield generator is damaged on the Queen's nubian ship, so it had sheilds. The Jedi Starfighters? If they had shields, why were the Buzz Droids able to just land on Obi's ship? If you mean the one Obi had in AOTC, your right, it never mentions shields, but in the scene where Jango is shooting at him, several times it LOOKS like the blasts hit shields. I forget if Anakin mentions Shields in the Naboo Starfighter.

Remember, in the prequils, small ships don't have hyperdrive yet. I thing Slave 1 is the smallest ship that has a self-contained hyperdrive. So its conceivable that small sheild generators haven't been invented yet.

Though its never mentioned in the movies, starfighters are armored against laser cannons. Tie fighters actually have armor and can take a hit or two, but in the movies they seem to just blow up when ever they are hit.

As for ground tactics they fit the movies. On Hoth, the rebels thought to sheild the planet against bombardment, but they defended the ground (Obviously the Empire cannot bomb so they will attack with their ATATs) with lightly armed troops and insuficient air speeders. Why didn't Luke just hop in his X-wing and torp a couple of ATAT's?????
Likewise, in ROTJ, you gotta believe that stone aged Ewoks just happened to have Catapults, log slides, and battering rams laying around in the forest, or they did a huge construction project after the Imps showed up.

Are the Clone troops on geonosis looking any smarter yet?
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#16
RobRoy Wrote:Quote from the films please?

Also, please show where this is true for the original trilogy as well.
Well the N1 has shields as we see them power up when anakin is in the core ship.
We hear rebel pilots say something like 'switch to from deflector shields' when they are in equatorial trench of the death star. The delta 7 ship seems to have shields as it seems to take a few hits from slave 1 before it actuually is damaged.

Matt Confusedhades::paw::coffee:
And she said 'Hoots I cannae get back tae me hoos in Bonny Scotland'
Girl with the Hazel Eyes - Ahhhhhh!
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#17
Yeah, in 4,5,6 all of the Rebel ships have sheilds and hyperdrive due to the lack of capital ships. Its more cost effective for the resource poor rebels to invest in more expensive fighters that can bring pilots home and launch from remote bases. The Empire has a huge pool of pilots, ships, and Star Destroyers, so their tactic was to pop in in some Sar Destroyers, prevent escape, and overwhelm them with TIEs.
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Depressants,...most depressants.Cool
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#18
I had forgotten that line. I believe in A New Hope one of the wing commanders tells the other pilots to switch all power to front deflector sheilds.

Suffice to say that this doesn't change my opinion on the tactics at Geonosis. It was a foolish way to battle and could easily have turned against them.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#19
Lucas was no military strategist.

As shown by the Clone army tactics straight out of a Civil War drill book.

The basic idea for a SW battle plan is: How cool will this look on a big screen with Dolby?
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#20
Actually, I had to watch Geonosis several times to see what was happening. Lucas once said a special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing, he skirts awful close to that in this scene. The scene is so crammed full of eye candy that the story often gets lost. In Hoth, the special effects may not have been as good, but you keep up with Luke, in his snow speeder with Wedge and Dak and others, you see General Veers commanding his ATAT's, you follow Leia and Han in the desperate defense of the base and harrowing escape. In AOTC, you get a few basic commands from the Jedi and a lot of clones running around dying. A lot of the drama and the story is lost. It catches back up when they are chasing Dooku and you know the guys dying, even the clones. One reason why Lucas always showed Red 3 and Blue 5 screaming when they died is to show their was a person in the craft, to humanize the killing. He corrects this in ROTS when he stats to show Clone pilots in battle, not just ships blowing up.
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