Papa Skywalker
#1
Now this thought. Did Vader lose his coolness in ROTJ? It is great seeing the son surpass the father in the final duel there is no question but think back. Vader in ANH, chokes his own officers, kills good guys. Vader in ESB, relentless, chokes and kills officers for failures, slices off son's hand. In ROTJ, comtemplates.

In ROTJ, Luke uses Force choke, power of suggestion, builds his own lightsaber, successful rescue of friends and fall of Jabba.

Just random thoughts.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#2
Perhaps Vader knew that there was going to be an ending to things - one way or another, and was resigned to this. He seemed much more under the control or influence of the Emperor in ROTJ to me, less like the bold conquering leader he was in SW and ESB.
All too easy !
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#3
Quote:Originally posted by Han Solo
Now this thought. Did Vader lose his coolness in ROTJ? It is great seeing the son surpass the father in the final duel there is no question but think back. Vader in ANH, chokes his own officers, kills good guys. Vader in ESB, relentless, chokes and kills officers for failures, slices off son's hand. In ROTJ, comtemplates.

In ROTJ, Luke uses Force choke, power of suggestion, builds his own lightsaber, successful rescue of friends and fall of Jabba.

Just random thoughts.


Emperor Palpatine!!! It was probably his influence.
Save a tree! (eat a beaver)
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#4
Vader does appear in the opening scene and belittles and berates the commander of the crew building the new Death Star. He sufficiently browbeats the man into submissions, but, of course, only after he mentions that the Emporer was coming to there. <shrug>

I think both Luke and Vader had something to consider after their discovery of the truth. Luke seems to sway a bit to the dark side, Vader is obviously shaken by the fact that he has progeny at all, and what that might mean to him and the Empire in general.

Does he lose his coolness though? Yeah, pretty much. He was hardcore from the beginning, but when gets all contemplative over Luke, he loses that edge. It's not a bad thing, that's the growth of the character that results in the all impressive flinging the Emporer down the generator shaft. But he had definately lost his edge up to that point.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#5
I never meant it was a bad thing that Vader becomes a softie in the end. It's part of his redemption. Also, seeing the prequels now, he lost Padme at one time and probably did not want to lose, give up or destroy his last connections to her which are their children.

It was a crossroads for both father and son and their destiny to face it together.

Yeah, he threates the moff on the Death Star II but it's not like a force choke threat.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#6
Quote:Originally posted by Han Solo
I never meant it was a bad thing that Vader becomes a softie in the end. It's part of his redemption. Also, seeing the prequels now, he lost Padme at one time and probably did not want to lose, give up or destroy his last connections to her which are their children.

It was a crossroads for both father and son and their destiny to face it together.

Yeah, he threates the moff on the Death Star II but it's not like a force choke threat.


Oh no, and I don't want to come off as saying you did. Not at all. You're absolutely correct. It is all about the change that Vader/Anakin was going through.

I like the connection part with his son, and then I wonder if the final straw was learning he had a daughter as well, and that it was Leia who had fought him head to head, and didn't even back down when confronted by him physically.

Yeppers. No choke threat, which he used in ANH when even his abilities were challenged by an underling.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#7
I think it was the intent to make him a softy. I liked him as the hero type in the end with saving his son and all. I think he realizes his mistakes and realizes that Luke is coming to him or for him and he doesn't want to harm his child because he has realized his mistakes and is trying to clean up. Realy I think that he became soft and turned to a good guy because he saw that Luke can fight and fight hard and not turn to the Dark Side, maybe Luke is the example and Vader is cleaning up. I heard alot of people didn't like Hayden Christenson in the end of ROTJ but I liked it because it flowed with the story because in the third one he dones the mask and it was supposed to show what he looked like before he doned the mask instead of some dried up 40 year old dude.
ALL HAIL YU'SHAA!!

There is no Evil, Only Evil Actions."
-Vergere, The Unifying Force
Powerful quote, very powerful.

I AM ONIMI!!!
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#8
In ANH he is just plain evil. Pretty one dimensional in some respects apart from the mystery of his ancient religion.

In ESB we see more. He is still plain evil but this time we see him plotting and manipulating and even conspiring against his master.

Yet in ROTJ it seems his actions are all because he must obey, not because this is what he is and this is what he wants to do. He is almost apologetic to Luke when bringing him to the Emporer. I suppose this is necessary beause the gap to redemption was too wide to jump for ESB Vader, so they had to mellow the character slightly for the audience to accept the transistion.
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#9
Now I wonder what Vader foresaw with the force. We know Luke had visions in ESB, the Emperor in Jedi but what about Vader?
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#10
I wonder if this links into the other discussion about Luke's rapid rise to power?

How much was it to do with Luke getting stronger and how much to do with Vader's redemption and internal conflict over fighting his son.

Also, if he did forsee his own defeat, did that affect his ability to fight?
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#11
I thought that Darth Vader was being held on a dog leash by the Emperor in ROTJ and obviously looked serious when he told Luke in ESB that he wanted Luke to help him to destroy the Emperor:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:
MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU ALL!!!
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#12
In Return Of The Jedi, you get the impression that Vader is starting to question things. In discovering that he has a living son, there is definitely a change in him. I love what he's like in ROTJ actually, the fact that he's even starting to disobey The Emperor, albeit in a very small way. Witness The Emperor starting to get a bit tetchy with Vader, "I thought I told you to remain on the ship!". He talks to him as if Vader's HIS child! I guess, maybe, that's how he saw Vader.

But, that scene in ROTJ, when Vader says to Luke, "It's too late for me son", you can feel the sadness and the conflict within him, it's all in the tone of his voice.

Plus, out of the original trilogy, those scenes on the Death Star with Vader, Luke and the Emperor, have to rate as the most tense of the whole trilogy!

Great thread by the way.

Smile
"You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this...boy?"
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#13
The Vader in ROTJ is the most human and conflicted of the original trilogy that's for sure. Thought I think you see bits of it when Vader pleades with Luke while trying to escape in the Falcon to join him.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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