Why Didn't He Fix "Empire" All the Way?
#1
I may be a couple of decades late in posing this question to those who may know, and for that I apologize. Even those who consider themselves "initiated" have only been able to answer with a confused look and slight shrug of the shoulders. Perhaps only TheLucas knows the answer, but I want to hear your hypothoses.

If, when TheLucas re-edited Episodes IV-VI back in the mid-'90s in preparation for the new Trilogy, in which he used the great improvements in CG to "fix" old scenes, why did he not fix the obvious?

I can understand why he switched from Clive Revill (Emporer in "Empire") to Ian McDiarmid in "Return" back in the early '80s, and because Revill was just a fuzzy hologram for a couple of minutes in Ep. V., it wasn't that big a deal back then. But fast-forward to '95. The boys at the Ranch are busy moving pixels around and digging through the cutting room scraps to put things the way they should have been. Scenes like "Jabba in the Hangar" are brought out of retirement. And who's already on the hook to reprise his Palpatine role in three new movies? That's right, Ian McDiarmid.
Now, since he's on board anyway - though not really doing anything since "Menace" was parsecs (sic) away from filming - why did TheLucas choose not to reshoot two minutes of "The Emporer" to replace that scene? I mean, it's not like it was a "real" hologram, right? You merely take the raw footage of Prowse kneeling in front of a blue screen back in '82, throw Ian into make-up on any soundstage in the world a dozen years later, and let the "Industrial" boys work their "magic". Did Revill have some iron-clad contract? I just need to know 'why'. It's about the only thing that kept those "Special" editions from being "Really Special".
TheOldOne
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#2
It's a valid question. Why didn't Lucas replace Clive with Ian back when the special editions came out? Don't really know. Anyone else have insight?
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#3
What would be the point?
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#4
Quote:Originally posted by Michael
What would be the point?


As far as replacing Clive Revill? Consistency. I'm not saying he needs to do it. I'm happy with Empire in it's original format.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#5
Well, then, does that mean Ewan MacGregor should be used in place of Sir Alec Guinness (sp?) for the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi in the earlier films?

What about Darth Vader? Who should be used to replace him?

And shouldn't they then replace all the puppet-Yodas with CGI-Yodas?
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#6
I have to agree w/ Michael. It was ok to upgrade and move sceens around but to replace an actor would change the character.

Besides, Lucas always said he would eventually make Eps 1, 2, & 3. He just didn't know when. So I think it would have been a contract thing, either the actors did it so he wouldn't change them out or he did it as a loyalty thing. Who knows.:confused:
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#7
Why did the emporer get changed in the first place? And to be fair we see so little of the emperor in ESB that it hardly matters.
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#8
Quote:Originally posted by Michael
Well, then, does that mean Ewan MacGregor should be used in place of Sir Alec Guinness (sp?) for the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi in the earlier films?

What about Darth Vader? Who should be used to replace him?

And shouldn't they then replace all the puppet-Yodas with CGI-Yodas?


There is already rumor that Hayden will be inserted in as Anakin's ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi.

Quote:Originally posted by Jammin
Why did the emporer get changed in the first place? And to be fair we see so little of the emperor in ESB that it hardly matters.


What do you mean? I don't think it's official yet that Ian has been inserted into ESB.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#9
I think Jammin was asking why they brought in Ian McDiarmid for "The Return of the Jedi". Poor Clive didn't have much to do, but I think a lot of people were troubled by his performance.

I HOPE they do not change the end of "Jedi" for the sake of visual consistency. That would just be more pointless concession to fan demands. Lucas did that with "Attack of the Clowns" and he produced a simply awful movie.

Fans should do fannish things (which includes griping about how their favorite works are being mauled) and Lucas should do Lucasian things, not fannish things.
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#10
Quote:Originally posted by Michael
Poor Clive didn't have much to do, but I think a lot of people were troubled by his performance.


Concern for actor performances doesn't seem to be an issue with the prequels though. Where were these doubters after seeing early rushes of Natalie, Jake and Hayden?

Just a thought.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Arthur C. Clarke: Clarke's Third Law from Profiles of the Future: An Inquiry into the Limits of the Possible
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#11
I certainly did not mean to imply that Clive didn't do a great job (for what little we saw), and I'm sure he would have done well in ROTJ. However, when TheLucas had the brainstorm of hiring a young actor and making him look ancient so he could then come back years later and play a younger version of himself..well...Clive was already in his 50s, and as Phoenix21 reminds us, there was no telling when the "first 3" would get made. Ian was a perfect choice.
Han is right - consistency the aim here, and not for us - for future generations. You, see, the trick here is that someday in the not too distant future, something's going to happen that has never happened before. Someone (who may not yet be born) will be the first person to watch all 6 episodes in order. They will see a young Obiwan - the young man - in three movies, then fast forward 20 years to see him as an old man - the same old man - in three movies. As for Vader, they will see him as a boy, a young man, an old, broken down half-bionic man, and finally as an old Jedi - three actors that show him aging consistently.
Yet, they'll see three episodes with Ian, one with no Palpatine (though there were some scenes in IV where I thought they could have snuck in a holograph or two), one episode with Clive, and then back to Ian. I'm not talking about a major change - a page of dialog.
I think Michael tried to discredit the idea by taking things to the extreme, but I'd like to address what he brought up. As for the CGI Yodas, yes, I think that there are some scenes in V & VI that could stand some more "enhancement". There was already some in the special editions. If anything, I hope that when CG gets better, they go back and fix that lightsaber battle in II. I mean, if you can tell it's CG, then ...
To say that you can't replace an actor - tell that to the poor schmuck who played the original Jabba (humanoid) who got CG'd over.
I merely meant that this would have been a very quick, very easy way for TheLucas to go back a fix what may have been just the teeniest bit of short-sightness on his part. I don't blame him for not looking too far ahead - remember, he was just recovering from writing "More American Graffiti". Sequels were not yet his strong suit. Now, he is TheMaster.


TheOldOne
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#12
I don't think that matters. I've seen numerous actors play Abraham Lincoln, various generals and admirals in the Second World War, Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz, and so forth. Anyone who has watched the Dr. Who shows know a role can change actors faster than you can ask, "What was your name again, doctor?"

Should they go back and put Tina Louise in place of the second Ginger in the Gilligan's Island movies?

Should Donna Douglas replace Erika Eleniak, Buddy Ebsen replace Jim Varney, Max Baer replace Diedrich Bader, or Irene Ryan replace Cloris Leachman in the movie version of "The Beverly Hillbillies"?

Just because Lucas started out with one set of actors in 1977 and added a few more in 1980 and 1983 doesn't mean he needs to go back and replace them just for the sake of consistency. If anything, that would be just plain weird.

We've grown up watching multiple actors take on familiar roles (how many versions of Ebenezer Scrooge have you seen?). Why can't the next generation grow up the same way?
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#13
[Edited flame - Han]

I just thought that while they were "fixing" the older films, this was one, very brief "special effect" that it would have been extremely easy to replace. For the purists, the original would still be around BetaMax somewhere.

TheOldOne
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#14
First of all, I apologize for not welcoming you TheOldOne. Welcome to SF-Fandom and the Star Wars forum. Second, it's okay to agree to disagree on some points but I'll kindly say do it politely and if you're not sure refer to the posting policy. Thanks.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#15
I know it looks like I was setting this up all along, but I swear I just noticed this. On the dustcover of my VHS Special Edition of ESB, that artwork of the "Emperor" sure looks a lot more like Ian than Clive.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say TheLucas may have planned the switch all the way, but for whatever reason couldn't pull it off by the deadline.
As if a sneak peak at the new "Darth" wasn't enough of a teaser to get me to try to snatch up one of the first DVDs...
Rumors already abound about splicing in Hayden. Anybody buy into the possibility that the DVD of ESB will be fixed? In a little over 2 months the answer will be revealed!
TheOldOne
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#16
I hate to be the one who says "I told you so", but....aw who am I kidding? I love it! But really, it didn't take a mastery of the Force to see that one coming, eh? Bye, bye, Clive.
TheOldOne
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#17
:bounce: You tell'em OldOne. :bg:
:alien: Sci-Fi needs reality TV as much as it needs a Hammer! :mad:
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#18
well i never noticed they werent the ssame so im sure he didnt want to waste 3 hours of his incredibly busy life:bg:
"It's like, how much more black could this be? And the answer is none. None more black."
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