"Not Fade Away" Discussion Here!
#1

This Thread Will Contain Spoilers


Since the most talked-about things from the final episode of the series are likely to be spoilers it would be increadibly tedious for everyone to post warnings or post in spoiler boxes. Therefore, I'm not asking anyone to, as long as it's kept within this thread.

So, if you haven't seen the episode yet and don't want to be spoiled, don't read any of the posts under this one!

You've been warned!

For the rest of ya, go wild! This should make discussion of the episode much easier.
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#2
Nummy Nummy Boomer, love the new luscious Avatar :tongue: thanks for the Spoiler Warnings, I was wondering how to handle it and this makes it very easy.

Well, I was sad. It was easier to accept because I knew it was coming. After so many good shows saying good-bye in the past couple of years, my skin is getting thicker. I was satisfied with the end. I see that the monsters at the end, which the good guys weren't done fighting, are the TV Networks still attacking our genre on all fronts. the battle isn't over. TV Networks want to kill the sf-fantasy genre because they don't understand it and can't categorize it. It doesn't appeal to the mindless masses who don't mind being controlled by TV propaganda the way reality TV does. We, as fans, are unpredictable, unclassifiable, and too smart for our own good.

The Networks want to put us in our own little box and our own little category, and when don't fit, they feel compelled to punish us for not going along with crowd and making their job easier.

I'm sad. I'm sad to see the genre suffering right now. The ending of Angel gave me a great deal of satisfaction that I'm not the only one who sees the battle being fought in an ongoing way. There are TV Network Dragons and Demons to slay and I'm willing to go down fighting.
"The sweat of hard work is not to be displayed. It is much more graceful to appear favored by the gods."
Maxine Hong Kingston, The Woman Warrior, 1976
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#3
Great episode. I liked how it was left open/closed. It's believable that they all died in a blaze of glory, or that a few may be alive for a possible tv movie or Spike show.

I thought it was great when Angel said "one of you will betray me" and Spike raised his hand to volunteer.
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#4
i thought it was great that spike got to read his poem to cecilee and the audience loved it.
in A Fool For Love it certianly wasn't appreciated .

i was also wondering what role Lorne would play. Who would have guessed he would kill Lindsey.?

Hamilton has very poor taste in vamps. Does it get any more annoying than Harmony?

RIP Wes

i was offended when i heard the WB thanking us for viewing. I think the could have shown their appreciation by not cancelling the show

hope you all enjoyed the episode

broodaholic
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#5
I was mortified at the Frog net putting on a big show about thanking the Angel fans. How hypocritical. Sort of like donating to the fireman's relief fund after you have started a fire. It just shows that they have no shame.
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#6
Wow! For once you and I agree on something masterblaster! :bg: Wink


Where's Venefice.... :anxious: I was sure she would have a comment to make about that "I want you Lindsey" line Angel gave. :tongue:
:alien: Sci-Fi needs reality TV as much as it needs a Hammer! :mad:
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#7
Quote:Originally posted by BlueDelvia
Where's Venefice.... :anxious: I was sure she would have a comment to make about that "I want you Lindsey" line Angel gave. :tongue:


Maggiemay is Venefice, and, yeah, I'm surprised she didn't mention it either! I thought she'd go hog wild with Spike's "well only that once" comment about being intimate with Angel from last weeks episode. Maybe I scared everyone off with my ranting about spoilers!

I was hoping for a more solid ending, but I do like that it was open. The episode was so rushed, I thought. WB should have had the common decency to give them a 2-hour send off, especially with that out of line "Thank You" to the fans at the end.

I thought that Spike was going to die, so I was happy that he didn't, although I didn't want to see Wes go. Big surpise goes to Lorne, though. I wondered why he was so unhappy with Angel, but it became clear. What a perfect ending. Lindsey never saw it coming, and neither did I. I also liked it cause it showed that while he didn't like it, Lorne was every bit as tough as the others-maybe more, cause it wasn't a demon he was killing, but a human.

Looks like Gunn was hurt bad, so who knows what happens to him, even if Angel, Spike, and Illyria survive.

Loved Spike's willingness to betray Angel too. Very funny!

What about Angel signing away the Shanshu? Do you feel that was a cop-out on the writers part? I don't feel it was, but I would have been nicer to have more time (again, the two hours) to see the effects of that.
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#8
I was okay with Angel signing away the shanshu in order to keep his ruse going. It was exactly like something he would do...sacrifice his future happiness for the fight against evil. I don't think it was a cop out. And I loved the conversation between Angel and Spike about it.

S: If we make it through this, what happens with the shanshu?
A: You know we're not going to make it through this.
S: Well as long as it isn't you who gets it.
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#9
David B. needs to bone up on his music history a bit more...

He told TV Guide Online:


Quote:TVGO: What do you think of how the show’s wrapped up?

Boreanaz: I’m comfortable with the way they’re ending it. It’s very open-ended. The title of the episode is "Not Fade Away," which I dig [because] that’s a Grateful Dead tune. It goes out fighting, which I think is great.


:laugh: Ummm.... they, like almost every band in history, from the Stones to the Beatles, simply covered it. It's a Buddy Holly song. :tongue:

August  - Jack's Pack Fan # 1, Keeper of the List, 3-Time Speaker of the JoAT Fan Quote of the Week, and the only person ever to have Back 2 Back Jack and Cleo fan quotes !
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#10
Quote:Originally posted by august
David B. needs to bone up on his music history a bit more...

:laugh: Ummm.... they, like almost every band in history, from the Stones to the Beatles, simply covered it. It's a Buddy Holly song. :tongue:



I totally missed that reference in the first place! Shameful, since it's on the Rolling Stones Stripped album that I have!
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#11
Great ep. Far better than Buffy's series finale. I agree a 2-hr ep would have been nice though, especially since the WB had the gall to mock us by thanking us for watching.

I agree with what everyone's said, so I won't repeat. Something no one's mentioned though is that incredibly heart breaking good-bye between Illyria and Wesley. "Would you like me to lie to you now?" :teary:

I liked Connor's involvement here. When he shows up at W&H and say "You show up for coffee and the world isn't ending? Please." Didn't really need the clarification that he did indeed get his memories back, but it was good to see that relationship finally get some closure.

And who else thinks Harrison would have made an excellent Agent Smith? He is so Matrix-y. The showdown with him and Angel was amazing. I could have gone with a little more of that.

Quote:Maggiemay is Venefice, and, yeah, I'm surprised she didn't mention it either! I thought she'd go hog wild with Spike's "well only that once" comment about being intimate with Angel from last weeks episode.

You and me both Boomer. I thought of her as well as soon as Spike said that.
Sheldon: I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.

~ The Big Bang Theory
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#12
Now we know why Lorne couldn't stomach what his last thing. Bam bam. Lindsey couldn't accept that Angel didn't kill him. And what was with the I want you comment. Ahahahahahah.

Poor Wesley. He got what he wanted in the end. To go with Fred and Illyria felt grief. I liked the ending thought it left it open, they went out fighting symbolically. So Angel might not make it to be human but he went out with a bang and he had some better closure and understanding with Connor. So Harmony played to her true demon form and Eve went down with the ship. I think I liked this ending better than Buffy.
I can imagine quite a bit.
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#13
Lemme tell you guys I was cussin' up a storm at that lame A*@ thankyou WB had at the end!! I was throwing whatever I could get my hands on at the tv and I may have invented some new cuss words, HA!! What a bunch of crap!! :angry: LOL

I loooved the finale, I thought it was very well done and I know I'm not the only one who shed a few tears when Wes died although I was happy he's with Fred now. :teary: The most shocking part for me was Lorne killing Lindsay, didn't see that one coming.. and yes I have to admit I had a little giggle at the look on Lindsay's face when he called Lorne a flunkie and and even bigger one when Harmony asked for a recommendation after she totally betrayed Angel AGAIN!!! She's such a dork but ya just have to laugh at her, she can't help herself!!

I also wish it had been a two parter but I think all in all, it's better this way. It leaves us guessing and hopefully this is not the end of Whedonverse although it may be awhile before we see Angel and the gang again....Patience grasshoppers, Joss hasn't let us down yet so all we can do is wait for a bang!!!
" I am, you know... (What?) ...yours. " ~Tara, (Willow), "Who Are You?"~
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#14
Hey Guys, I did notice all the lovely subtext references. I just figured I had made yall all pretty sick of me pointing them out, so I was giving it a rest. I enjoyed the last ep. It was a bit rushed. The end where the WB gave us a big thankyou made me feel cheap and used, not welcomed or appreciated. DB is ready to get out of the buffy-verse for a while. I can understand that. When you've done something for a long time, it loses it's challenge. But after some time off, you get nostalgic to get back with it again.

I was certain Spike would survive because he and Illyira are the best bets for a spinoff in the 2005-2006 season. I enjoyed seeing Spike and Illyria hunting together for Drogyn. Spike and she suit eachother fine for team-mates as far as I'm concerned. He seems to understand her point of view better than anyone else, even poor Wesley.

I think the reason we saw so much of Eve is becasue she will do something for Lyndsey so that his character won't have to hang up his hat. I'm not sure what it would be, but in the Whendon-verse, we know that death isn't permanent and I cannot beleive that Lyndsey has breathed his last. Also, when Whedon does something the fans don't like, Casting Eve for isntance, he ususally sticks with his original decision stubbornly, to prove to us that his idea wasn't so bad.

Sort of like how Buffy the movie didn't do so good, but he stuck with it and made the TV show that was excellent. Firefly the show wasn't so popular but Serenity is going to be a great hit, I have no doubts. Eve wasn't so popular a character, so he'll show us her worth eventually. That's my understanding of it anyway.

I hardly know what to do with myself now that there aren't any good Whedon shows on. I'm waiting patiently for Serentity, and for the 2005-2006 season. I don't know what else to do.
"The sweat of hard work is not to be displayed. It is much more graceful to appear favored by the gods."
Maxine Hong Kingston, The Woman Warrior, 1976
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#15
I have to agree, Spike and Illyria are the only ones I actually see surviving that conflict but not sure they would make it to the head guys ready for more after that fight. Maybe Angel too as he doesn't have anything to loose now - he lost Cordy, he signed away his soul and Buffy is with the Immortal now.

I half expected Cordy to show up or something but I guess not, maybe in a tv movie or something. At least Conner storyline seems solved and ended.

Can't say I was too surprised by The WB and that Thank You they did.
"Some people say you are going the wrong way, when it's simply a way of your own." ~ Angelina Jolie

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#16
The problem with Spike and Angel is that they're supposed to be immortal, yet the actors, of course, age. Especially James Marsters, who's in his 40s. Not that that's "old," but there's starting to be a visible difference between Spike on earlier seasons of Buffy and Spike currently.

So that will no doubt weigh on wether or not his character returns at some point.

Interesting sidenote: I heard two guys talking about Angel at the comic book store yesterday, and one said that the reason James Marsters was on Angel was because his Buffy contract actually extended for another year, so they had to do something with him. Anyone know if that's true?
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#17
I didn't know that about Marsters. I figured they had him move to Angel because he is a fan favorite and Angel is more interesting when he has Spike to spar with.

Akasha, it would have been lovely to see Cordy step in to save the day. I'm going to make that a permanent part of my fantasy ending for Angel.

My other fantasy ending was the slayers all showing up out of the blue to help the fang-gang fight to the finish in the end. Since they had obviously turned from W&H they would now be somehow deserving of the help the slayers could provide. I was surprised that it ended the way it did. I thought for sure there would be something we could hang our hat on that they would make it through. But no such luck. It was the lack of reinforcements that made me feel like it was representative of the state of our genre in modern TV-land. No reinforcements. No troops over the next ridge. Just a few weary champions fighting against the odds. Victory at this point, is uncertain.
"The sweat of hard work is not to be displayed. It is much more graceful to appear favored by the gods."
Maxine Hong Kingston, The Woman Warrior, 1976
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#18
It could be true Boomstick. SMG waited till the last hours to confirm that she wasn't signing on for an eighth season of Angel. Maybe August knows something on this matter. I could say it's a possibility, James could have signed an extenison to his contract while SMG was still mulling over rather or not to come back for an eighth season of Buffy.

I would have liked to have seen Cordy came back and help, her whole "I'll be seeing you." line I hope wasn't just thrown in. In the world of Joss, simple lines like that come back with a different meaning. And seeing the Slayers that are out there (as we saw on Angel when they came for that Psycho Slayer), it would have been expected to see them show up being led by Faith since Buffy was in Rome. *sighs*
"Some people say you are going the wrong way, when it's simply a way of your own." ~ Angelina Jolie

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#19
Rarely does an actor's contract promise them work beyond a show's cancellation, though. In fact, usually, the contract just spells out how little they have to pay the actor, and how much the actor has to work - the producers almost always have the option to get rid of the actor whenever and however they choose to. Basically the "employment at will" idea from regular labor law. So the actor is hindered from taking other roles, or getting raises, but the producers can do whatever they want. Can't imagine a successful production company getting themselves into a situation where they are forced to find employment for an otherwise unknown (outside of Buffy/Angel circles) stage actor.

In fact the only time I've ever heard of anything even remotely resembling that was the 13 episode, "play or pay" contract that Ted Raimi wrangled for the 5th season of Xena. He had traditionally only been in a handful of eps as a guest star each year, and was not wild about living in NZ for any long period of time. Since they knew they needed someone to cover for Lucy Lawless during her pregnancy (they had all kinds of plots where she was on screen only minimally - for example, in one her spirit was inside the body of a little girl, and in another, her spirit was inside Gabrielle's body) but they hadn't yet writen all those episodes, they wanted to lock up his services for the season. But since he wasn't a regular, they ended up doping a deal where he got paid for the equivalent of 13 episodes, and had to be available for that many... whether or not they ended up writing him into that many or not. Whoever his agent is, is a genius.

My guess is a simple one - Angel's ratings were shaky, and Marsters was a popular character... and the only one of the leads who wasn't already planning on moving on to other gigs. So it made sense to move him over.
August  - Jack's Pack Fan # 1, Keeper of the List, 3-Time Speaker of the JoAT Fan Quote of the Week, and the only person ever to have Back 2 Back Jack and Cleo fan quotes !
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#20
Quote:Originally posted by august
Rarely does an actor's contract promise them work beyond a show's cancellation, though. My guess is a simple one - Angel's ratings were shaky, and Marsters was a popular character... and the only one of the leads who wasn't already planning on moving on to other gigs. So it made sense to move him over.


That's exactly what I thought, too. Because as the guy was saying that, I was considering the fact that Marsters' Buffy contract would have been with UPN, and therefore need not carry over to the WB, since the show had left that network.

Like you said, I doubted that the producers had a commitment to him. It sounded like fanboy B.S. to me when I heard it, but I didn't want to say anything cause I didn't know the guys, and I figured they'd laugh me out of the place if I started talking James Marsters and they saw that the hairs poking out from under my Edmonton Oilers hat was bleached! :laugh:
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