troy? good or bad?
#41
I think Troy's biggest weakness was it could not decide whether it wanted to be an epic or a "popcorn" film which is why it kept switching between operatic speech and just normal talking (resulting in the clunky script). Such a waste really.
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#42
Quote:Originally posted by moif
SPOILER WARNING!!
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Through out the entire film I was rooting for Paris's bloody demise and watching him gun Achilleos down like a whining lil tralk made my blood boil.

Hector's child made an orphan, Troy burned, thousands slain and all for what? Just so this idiot and his tralk of a princess could get together!!?

Homer must have been a right pessimist...


Hey moif, just so you know, within the text:

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Paris and Helen both die, and Hector's son is tossed from the walls of a burning Troy.

So if you thought Homer was a pessimist just from watching the movie, you should read the text!
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It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#43
hmm.. okay.. Homer was apparently the earlier incarnation Quentin Tarantino :ohno:
:paw: Speak up! Don't mumble!!
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#44
Quote:Originally posted by moif
hmm.. okay.. Homer was apparently the earlier incarnation Quentin Tarantino :ohno:


As William Shatner said, "I guess the Greeks were right when they called it 'tragedy'."

The Greeks were big fans of tragedy, especially when it's called Tragedy. Something about the catharsis of the soul and whatnot. So yeah, definately some tragic stuff going on in Illiad, and check out the moderately successful sequel Odyssey for even more tragic chuckles. After duking it out, successfully, with the Trojans for ten years, Odysseus (Ullyses for you Romans out there) who never wanted to go to war in the first place, takes another ten years to return home to Ithaca to wife and son. Twenty years, and Odysseus is the only one from that merry band of sailors/soldiers who returns home.

I think the moral of the story is that when the Greeks ask you to go to war, you best bet is suicide.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#45
I still think the funniest death (if there is souch a thing) is Odysseus' companion who was sleeping on the roof, woke up and forgot he was on the roof, and attempted to run back to the ship. Hehe!

moif, I couldn't quite get what you were saying about Paris/Orlando Bloom? You hated the character but liked the interpretation? You hated both? And

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Paris did indeed kill Achilles with an arrow to the ankle, so there you are..

RobRoy,
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Helen doesn't die. I mean, eventually, she probably did (I'll have to check that), but not in any of the epics.
"Cali rules these forums. I think that whatever she says, she's always right, so I'm abdicating my throne for her to take over control. MWA to all! :kiss:"
- RobRoy
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#46
Hi Cali. :wave:

Both I guess. Bloom played the wimpy coward too convincingly for my liking. :mad:

by the way...

If any one is interested here is the trailer for 'Alexander'

http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/alexander/large.html
:paw: Speak up! Don't mumble!!
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#47
Heya moif! Long time, no see!

Hmm...I liked his portrayal of Paris. I thought he was great in the role (although I have read reviews that start out with: "Orlando Bloom should, legally, never be allowed to act.") Plus I've always found Paris himself an interesting character. The Orlando mostly-naked scene helped my opinions of him, too :bg:
"Cali rules these forums. I think that whatever she says, she's always right, so I'm abdicating my throne for her to take over control. MWA to all! :kiss:"
- RobRoy
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#48
It's entirely possible that I'm wrong about Helen, Cali. It's been ages since I read Illiad, and I will always bow to your superior knowledge of such events.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#49
Quote:Originally posted by RobRoy
It's entirely possible that I'm wrong about Helen, Cali. It's been ages since I read Illiad, and I will always bow to your superior knowledge of such events.


Huh :thud:

stares at Cali with amazement and new found respect....




Wink
:paw: Speak up! Don't mumble!!
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#50
Quote:Originally posted by moif

stares at Cali with amazement and new found respect....


This is what you get for missing staff meetings. Cali reads Latin and whatnot. She's a whiz-bang at the classic-classics. I would never think to argue with her regarding points of fact.

Other points, sure, but not on who sired whom, or who puched out how many teeth from which god.

Some things are better left un-argued.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#51
Staff meetings? :tongue:

Yeah, Cali she's a good un Smile
:paw: Speak up! Don't mumble!!
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#52
You mean you didn't respect me before, moif?
(Actually, I agree with you. I kinda view Rob on almost the same level as my lecturers, and having anyone on that level agree with me always flattens me!)

And Rob, when are these staff meetings? I'd like warnings, in the future (but thank you!)

Thanks for posting the Alexander link, moif - I saw it today. One of my lecturers seems overly excited about it.

Now, I shall go - it's half past 2 in the afternoon but I feel an overwhelming need to sleep. (sorry this was so OT)
"Cali rules these forums. I think that whatever she says, she's always right, so I'm abdicating my throne for her to take over control. MWA to all! :kiss:"
- RobRoy
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#53
Sorry guys, but I've only read a small part of this thread. For me, since the movie was filmed in gorgeous Malta, it's super-brilliant Smile
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#54
Quote:Originally posted by Calaquendi
And Rob, when are these staff meetings? I'd like warnings, in the future (but thank you!)


Oh Cali, staff meetings are for kids, and as such a serious student, we wouldn't presume to invite you. It's just so beneath you! :bg:
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#55
The movie portrayed things more historically than mythically. I think that was a strength. Achilles wasn't an invincible warrior with a deus ex machina weakness. He was just an incredibly good fighter, who was downed by a cheapshot.
Life sucks. Unless bad things happen, you can't be sure you're actually alive.
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#56
Quote:Originally posted by RobRoy
Oh Cali, staff meetings are for kids, and as such a serious student, we wouldn't presume to invite you. It's just so beneath you! :bg:

Ha! "Serious student" - and I thought you knew me!

Camech, I wholly disagree with you on the "cheap shot" thing. I mean, if you have your shot to kill someone who has led the charge into your city and killed your family, generally you take it, "cheap" or not.
"Cali rules these forums. I think that whatever she says, she's always right, so I'm abdicating my throne for her to take over control. MWA to all! :kiss:"
- RobRoy
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#57
Quote:Originally posted by Calaquendi
Camech, I wholly disagree with you on the "cheap shot" thing. I mean, if you have your shot to kill someone who has led the charge into your city and killed your family, generally you take it, "cheap" or not.


I agree with Cali here. The Achilles Heal is a recurring theme, and very much a desire for authors to explore the idea of a fatal or tragic flaw. I would go so far as to say that everyone has such a flaw, something that can push them over the edge, or cause great grief. The term has come to be a metaphor for just such a character flaw since the Homeric epic.

On a less amorphous level, there is no such thing as a "cheap shot" in a fight to the death. There are advantages and disadvantages to both fighters, and each took or didn't take them as they came. If you consider Paris' slaying of Achilles to be cheap, because he used a bow, then do you also consider Robin Hood and his men to be cheap for their use of the weapon? Do you consider any bow work at all to be cheap? We all like to see a sense of "fair play" in our movies, even on the battlefield, but the truth is that in such elements it is kill or be killed, and no one keeps count of "fair play" in difference to a Win/Loss column.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#58
John Wayne's last movie was "The Shootist". He played a professional gunfighter who, upon learning he had cancer, decided to spend his last few months in a small quiet town.

But his reputation preceded him, and people came looking for him. Ron Howard played a teenage boy whose mother ran a boarding house where Wayne's character stayed. The boy had a bad case of shootist-worship, and Wayne's character told him in one scene something like, "You know who ends up killing you in the end? It's not the fancy gunslinger, or the fastest draw. It's the unknown guy whose hand is shaking so bad he can barely hold his gun. He comes up behind you with a shotgun and you never see it coming."

That is a ROUGH paraphrase drawn from memory, but the point is that he was trying to convey the idea that the best fighters don't go down in glory. They go down the only way that ordinary people can take them out: with the "cheap" shot.

Of course, that scene foreshadowed a climactic scene in the movie when guns were coming out all over the place.

I think "The Shootist" was, in some ways, the last of the anti-war movies (it was a very strange kind of movie for John Wayne to make, and many people sat up and took notice of the change in his character). But it drove home the point that killing people is not only NOT a glorious thing to do, it's dangerous. One of the sub-themes of the movie is that there is a lot of emotion bound up in the decision to take a life for the first time. You have to cross a threshold, and it takes a real impetus to thrust you across that threshold.

So, when Paris takes out Achilles, he is undoubtedly doing so out of fear, anger, remorse, shame, and grief. It's not just a cheap shot, it's an angry, hate-filled shot. It's an emotionally charged moment. But it's also the only way that an ordinary guy like Paris (who is NOT a warrior) can kill someone like Achilles.
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#59
Quote:Originally posted by RobRoy
On a less amorphous level, there is no such thing as a "cheap shot" in a fight to the death. There are advantages and disadvantages to both fighters, and each took or didn't take them as they came. If you consider Paris' slaying of Achilles to be cheap, because he used a bow, then do you also consider Robin Hood and his men to be cheap for their use of the weapon? Do you consider any bow work at all to be cheap? We all like to see a sense of "fair play" in our movies, even on the battlefield, but the truth is that in such elements it is kill or be killed, and no one keeps count of "fair play" in difference to a Win/Loss column.


Its not that he was shot with a bow, but how he was shot and by whom. Paris was an arrogant, selfish, coward, plain and simple.
:paw: Speak up! Don't mumble!!
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#60
Quote:Originally posted by moif
Its not that he was shot with a bow, but how he was shot and by whom. Paris was an arrogant, selfish, coward, plain and simple.


I'm not in dispute with your take on Paris. On many points I tend to agree. His sense of duty was sadly lacking throughout the entire movie.

However, I disagree with the "how he was shot and by whom". He was attacking the city, he was killing people, and he appeared to be about to kill Paris' cousin. Even still, he had slain many Trojans including Paris' brother.

That Paris was accountable for all this, I don't dispute. But his shooting of Achilles was, in some very, very small part, an attempt to rectify the situation.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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