Merry and Pip, warriors?
#1
I was watching the extended version of FOTR yesterday and noticed in the battle of Amon Hen that Merri and Pip killed several Uruk-hai. How could hobbits, who had only been training for a couple of months (the duration of the journey with the Fellowship to that point) be able to kill Uruk-hai when Uruk-hai were breed and trained for battle.
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#2
they could off if they tried really hard,,,,,but maybe that was why it was in the extended cut cause it looked a bit unreal
Oh Orlando why do you tease us so?
Im in love with a Elf,A Pirate,A Prince,A Milkman and A soldier
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#3
They were throwing stones. Hobbits were extraordinarily accurate at that, if you read the Introduction to the LotR.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#4
Because their swords were sharp enough to kill. I doubt they killed anyone with their stone throws. Oh, and don't forget the fighting they did in Moria. The only Uruks I saw them kill were engaged with Boromir. But none of this matters as the Uruks were instructed to capture hobbits alive and were (presumably) not fighting at full capacity.
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#5
Quote:Originally posted by Attalus
They were throwing stones. Hobbits were extraordinarily accurate at that, if you read the Introduction to the LotR.


They were throwing stones too, but there were scenes with them stabbing several Uruk-hai. How were the Uruk-hai hurt by the stones, they had a lot of armor on. The stones couldn't have killed the Uruk-hai, could it?
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#6
It is quite possible to kill someone with a thrown stone, especially in the temporal and occipital regions of the skull. That is why traditional helmets covered those areas. The neck is vulnerable, too; think "rabbit punch." Stoning is a very old method of execution.
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici
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#7
In the TT they were knocking orcs over with stones. If they coudl do it then, why not in the FOTR?
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#8
And in ROTK, Minas Tirith was hurling BIG stones :bg: :halo:
Stop reading this and concentrate on the post.
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#9
NO.
"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost."
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#10
Yes, but how were they able to kill the Uruk-hai with swords. They are only hobbits, and Peregin is a clumsy hobbit at that.
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#11
Quote:Originally posted by olsonm
But none of this matters as the Uruks were instructed to capture hobbits alive and were (presumably) not fighting at full capacity.
This is the key point, and dovetails with the book. In the book, Pippin recalls that the Orcs were strangely unwilling to fight the hobbits, even after Merry had cut off a few arms and legs. Boromir's arrival was recalled as an event that had made the Uruks fight.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#12
Quote:Originally posted by SpringfieldST
Yes, but how were they able to kill the Uruk-hai with swords. They are only hobbits, and Peregin is a clumsy hobbit at that.


What are you saying? That's it's impossible for a Hobbit with a sword to kill an Uruk? As has been pointed out, the movie and the books both show the Uruks unwilling to slay the Hobbits. Given that the Hobbits had no such qualms, and were fighting, as they saw it, for their lives, is it really so hard to imagine that these Hobbits were capable of dealing a deathblow?

Further, where do you get that Peregrin was "a clumsy hobbit at that"? His shock and horror of being in the Chamber of Mazarbul, surrounded by the slain-dead, while Gandalf is recounting the play-by-play of their demise, was what caused him to back up against the well, which then caused the falling of the bucket. This hardly counts as clumsy.

In the book, he purposely tosses a stone down the well.

Past that, I can't recall very many instances which would label Pippin as "clumsy" and fewer still for Merry.

Recall that whatever abilities the Orcs have, they don't seem much on training in weaponry, at least not any more than your average human is. They generally relied on numbers to overpower their opponents, and this was a reasonably effective tactic. Given this, and the rough training that Merry and Pippin received from Boromir and Aragorn (movie) I see little reason to doubt that the Hobbits would be incapable of bearing an Orc to the ground and then stabbing him.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#13
Gandalf makes at least two references to Peregrin's stupidity in the FOTR EE. He is the comic foil for the entire movie. And just because he was scared in the Chamber of Mazarbul doesn't forgive him for being clumsy. There were three other hobbits in the Chamber who were just as scared any they didn't knock and bones down a well.

I would think that the hobbits would match up better against regular orcs, but in this case they were fighting Uruks who are quite a bit bigger, stronger and more coordinated than the orcs. In TT, the Uruks kill orcs at will during the scene before Merry and Pip escape.

Even though the Uruks were instructed not to kill the halflings, I find it hard to believe they would just let themselves be slaughetered by the hobbits. The Uruks could have disarmed the hobbits without using deadly force.
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#14
Quote:Originally posted by SpringfieldST
Gandalf makes at least two references to Peregrin's stupidity in the FOTR EE. He is the comic foil for the entire movie. And just because he was scared in the Chamber of Mazarbul doesn't forgive him for being clumsy. There were three other hobbits in the Chamber who were just as scared any they didn't knock and bones down a well.

Gandalf calls Pippin a "fool" not "stupid". In either case, stupidity or foolishness does not translate into clumsiness. Even if it did, it doesn't take a genuis to hold a sword up and let an opponent run himself onto the blade, nor does it take a Balrog scientist to be able to swing said sword in such a fashion as to kill with it.

In the case of Pippin backing into the well and the bucket, there was only one well and only one bucket, so I fail to see how the other Hobbits being in the Chamber prove that Pippin was "clumsy", or how this proves that Pippin was incapable of putting a foot of steel into a creature's body. In fact, it is highly likely that everyone in the chamber trod on bones without realizing it.

This doesn't prove clumsiness.

Quote:I would think that the hobbits would match up better against regular orcs, but in this case they were fighting Uruks who are quite a bit bigger, stronger and more coordinated than the orcs. In TT, the Uruks kill orcs at will during the scene before Merry and Pip escape.

Even though the Uruks were instructed not to kill the halflings, I find it hard to believe they would just let themselves be slaughetered by the hobbits. The Uruks could have disarmed the hobbits without using deadly force.

And the Uruks did disarm the hobbits and took them prisoner.

But that doesn't mean that Merry and Pippin couldn't have killed at least one of them in the heat of battle. Better training, greater height and strength don't necessarily equate to instant victory. As Yoda says, "Size matters not", or, at least, it needs to be taken into consideration in accordance with other factors. Certainly this has been proved in any number of battles in our own real world. Do I really need to cite examples for this to be a given? Would you be willing to step in the ring with Jackie Chan (5'8") or Bruce Lee (5'7") or Jet Li (5'6")? How about Michelle Yeoh (5'4") or Ziyi Zhang (5'5") or Cynthia Rothrock (5'3")?

Merry and Pippin received sword training at the hands of Aragorn and Boromir, both, I feel we can agree, masters of the sword. We saw (EE verion) that Merry and Pippin were able to take Boromir, a greater warrior than any Uruk, down together. Why, then, is it so hard to believe that Merry and Pippin are capable of taking on an Uruk or two? It may have been a combination of luck and skill, but again, it doesn't take a sword master to kill someone with a sword.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#15
RR -

Of course I wouldn't get in a ring with those martial arts masters (even though I am only slightly bigger than them) because they have trained for years in their craft. It is their life work. Merry and Pippin came from a background of peace, pleasure and tranquility. Suddenly because they trained with Aragon and Boromir on the way voyage they are experts in the way of the blade? I don't think so. Of course I will agree that Aragon and Boromir are masters at sword fighting, but they only trained Merry and Pip for short times during a long voyage. I can't believe that the short training they recieved during breaks (when she should be resting from their trek) gave them enough expertise to be great swordsman. When Aragon first gives the hobbits their blades, the hobbits seem almost frightened to seem them at first.

Also, I believe in the Chamber scene, Pip touches an arrow lodged in the skeleton of the orc before knocking it in the well. I could be wrong. Nevertheless, none of the other hobbits back up in any direction, they stand and listen.
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#16
Quote:Originally posted by SpringfieldST
RR -

Of course I wouldn't get in a ring with those martial arts masters (even though I am only slightly bigger than them) because they have trained for years in their craft. It is their life work. Merry and Pippin came from a background of peace, pleasure and tranquility. Suddenly because they trained with Aragon and Boromir on the way voyage they are experts in the way of the blade? I don't think do.

<sigh>

That's not what I said.

What I said was that size and strength don't matter. The people I listed are not comparable to Merry and Pippin in any way, nor was I comparing them in such a fashion. I used them as examples of dangerous people who are smaller, and have (pound for pound) less strength, as a means of reflecting that just because someone is bigger and stronger, that doesn't grant them an instant victory.

Quote:Of course I will agree that Aragon and Boromir are masters at sword fighting, but they only trained Merry and Pip for short times during a long voyage. I can't believe that the short training they recieved during breaks (when she should be resting from their trek) gave them enough expertise to be great swordsman. When Aragon first gives the hobbits their blades, the hobbits seem almost frightened to seem them at first.

Where has anyone said that Merry and Pippin are "great swordsmen"? What was said was that Orcs and/or Uruks have little to no training. Merry and Pippin have some training at the hands of two great fighters and swordsmen. Given that any fool can stick a blade into anyone else using little to no skill and/or luck, why then can't Merry and Pippin stick a blade into an Uruk in the heat of battle after being given some general instruction?

Quote:Also, I believe in the Chamber scene, Pip touches an arrow lodged in the skeleton of the orc before knocking it in the well. I could be wrong. Nevertheless, none of the other hobbits back up in any direction, they stand and listen.


Again, this doesn't prove clumsiness on anyone's part. Foolishness on Pippin's part? Yes. And that's exactly what Gandalf calls him. But, again, this fails to make any case for Pippin being clumsy. Pippin didn't trip, fall and stumble into the bones that then fell into the well. He didn't fumble the hat and staff Gandalf had handed him, which then caused the bucket to fall. He touched something, barely and gingerly, which had the unforseen effect of causing it to fall.

None of which has any bearing on Pippin's ability to swing a sword.

Can you cite any other instances, book or movie, which will prove clumsiness? And then, can you prove that clumsiness equates into inability to stab someone? If not, then I fail to see any validity in your argument.
All your base are belong to us.

It could be that the purpose of my life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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#17
Springfield, your arguments seem to be taken exclusively from the movies. Fair enough, this is the movie forum. However, if you object to M&P killing a Uruk or two at Parth Galen, you must also be upset about Merry's involvement in the death of the Witch King at the Pelennor. and you'd probably be really upset to learn that Pippin slew a troll at the Black Gate in the book, and was instrumantal in both the leadership and combat phases of the Battle of Bywater (in the unfilmed "Scouring of the Shire" sequence).

There is ample precedent in Tolkien's writings for Orcs to engage in kamikaze tactics, especially when attempting to capture an enemy alive. The most notable kamikaze tactics were employed in the Battle of the Gladden fields (when Isildur was slain) and upon the capture of Hurin in which Hurin slew 70 trolls before being borne down by the sheer weight of his foes and captured.

Capturing a determined foe alive is an inherently dangerous activity. If you insist upon doing it, you will take casualties, regardless of the relative strength and skill levels of the combatants.
Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

I don't have any humble opinions.
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#18
Well, it would seem that I am clearly out of my league in this debate.

I guess I hadn't thought it all the way through. Thanks for the insights.
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#19
I guess it was luck. IMean they only have little daggers and they are up against URuk Hai who are double their size strength and weight with massive swords. LUCK!:confused:
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#20
OK PEEEOPLE!!! I think that we dooo have to look at the actual text to find an answer to this question. TExtually i feel that tolkien does not suggest the M and P are warriors but grow into the position of defenders of their quest. This is an essential tranformation that takes place...something that people hopefully didnt miss. Look at teh beginnig M and P are just miscreants in Hobbiton. they enjoy thee isolated life of a hobbit in the shire. eventually one choses to serve the humans ...as a warrior- HUGE CHANGE...i invite discussino of this, but i think this is a central issue to the character development. OMG LOOK AT THE TIME~~~ WOOOO gtg,,, like seriously im late for hair salon. but talk to yall later!!! LUV YA~
B Bloom
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