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Full Version: Anakin's Motives... (spoilers)
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so anakin sees a vision of Padme dying, at the time it seems like she dies from her childbirth. later they explain that she lost the will to live after anakin turns to the dark side. It seems obvious that Anakin's one true motive for this turn was to save Padme from his vision, to stop her from death. now it seems to me, the one single act that solidified the furture was anakin chopping off mace windus arm. if he did not do that, windu would have killed the emperor, anakin would not have turned and Padme would have lived.c

so if anakin did not turn Padme would have lived, but he turns so she can live. nultimately, he is a victim of wrongful conclusions. what a twisted world we live in.

does anybody think that his motives were not solely to save Padme, but that he was power hungry.lets here some other motives...
I think originally they were to save Padme as he did sound pretty desperate but once Palpatine had poisoned his mind he bacme power hungry. He had dreamed of his mothers death before she died and he had dreamed of Padme's death , he didnt want Padme to share the same fate as his mother. Padme was also pregnant and didnt want to lose the children either. It seemed from AOTC that his rebelious side would turn him and him thinking that obi-wan was holding him back but it looked like he stopped thinking that in ROTS.
Is it possible that Sidious influenced Anakin's dreams to give him this fear? So starting Anakin on a path to the Dark Side? Then Palpatine makes out that he has an answer to Anakin's fear that only he can help him save Padme, that the Jedi could not help him.
Maybe, coz it seemed through some of his dialogue that he knew exactly what anakin's dream was about. Maybe he just sensed his feelings
One thing I've learned from watching all kinds of Sci Fi shows & movies is that when someone sees the future, then tries to keep that future from happening, their actions are usually the cause of whatever they were trying to avoid in the first place.

I think Palpatine might have influenced Anakin's thoughts and dreams because he knew that Padme was his weakness. In AOTC, the told Anakin that he believed he would be the most powerful Jedi ever. My opinion is that Palpatine's plan started even then...especially since Anakin had been displaying his anger and impatience quite openly.
I agree that Sidious caused Anakin to have the dreams. Remember the way he smiled when he mentioned twice (smiling both times) to Anakin that he could help Anakin save Padme's life? And how did Sidious know? Perhaps he could have read Anakin's thoughts, just Anakin did in Return of the Jedi, sensing that Luke had a sister. But I just find it a whole lot more credible that Palpatine caused Anakin to have the dreams as part of a plan to lure him to the dark side.

Why would Anakin have dreams of Padme dying in childbirth if the actual cause of her death were despair over the future of the Galaxy and particularly her own family, shame over her link to a villainous jedi-turned-sith, and general loss of will to live? Of course it's possible that he could have foreseen her death, despite the fact that even though it occurred during childbirth, the childbirth itself wasn't the cause. But why would Anakin have visions that were self fulfilling? It doesn't make sense. There had to be an intelligent design behind them, because without the occurence of those dreams in the first place, they never would have come true.

What would have happened if he had not had the dreams? Windu would have wasted Sidious and the Republic would have survived. Anakin would have had to resign as a Jedi due to his breaking the rules, but that would have been the worst of it. Padme would have survived, instead of dying in shame and despair.

Remember that the medical droid said that she was healthy and that the reasons for her death were not medically explainable. She would have lived if Anakin had not become a Sith. Her death was avoidable.

Anakin's reaction to the dreams ended up being what caused them to take place? Impossible. The dreams were implanted into his mind by Sidious. That is the only logical explanation. And if it is accepted, it certainly falls into line with Palpatine's character for him to have connived and executed such a scheme.

Am I wrong?
This is a good topic. I don't think he created the vision though. In ESB, Luke had visions of the future and Yoda said interperting is very difficult. Actually he warned him it was dangerous. I think Anakin's vision was almost a warning to him to be careful, but he saw it as something he had to fix. This misinterpretation led him down the path of the darkside for the quick and easy search for power. It began with good intentions but Sidious twisted this desire to his will. The Jedi/Sith appear to look into the soul and minds of people. The Jedi council did it to Anakin in TPM when Qui-Gon brought him to be tested. Remember they said "your thoughts dwell on your mother", and Yoda said "See through you we can". This makes me think that Sidious was just "reading" his thoughts and feelings, not creating the visions. He for sure played off his emotions to sway his judgement.
Oh also, they are not dreams... they are visions of the future.
You certainly have a point. And a convincing one too. But I still feel that it is impossible for him to have self fulfilling visions. I just can't see how a vision could take place when its cause depends on the vision taking place to begin with. I see it as a cause and effect situation. The incident that took place in the dream was an effect of a choice Anakin made. How can that vision be both a cause and an effect at the same time? It is an illogical conundrum.

A possibility presents itself to me, which backs up your theory: perhaps Anakin would have sided with Palpatine in his conflict with the Jedi Council anyway, and would have turned to the dark side even without his insistence that Palpatine be spared so that he could use the Sith's power to save Padme's life, but rather, simply because of his loyalty to the Chancellor and the Republic, as he saw it. But I find this theory somewhat shaky. Anakin, despite his loyalty to Palpatine, was willing to rat on him to Mace Windu, and nearly attacked him all by himself prior to that. Anakin had no love for the Sith, until he became one. If Palpatine had not presented himself as Anakin's only hope for saving Padme's life, Anakin would have either engaged him in combat or allowed Mace to kill him, even if it seemed somewhat unorthodox and "un-Jedi-like" for Mace to do so. Anakin openly stated that he would like to kill Palpatine once he realized his identity as the Sith Lord, and Palpatine could feel Anakin's anger, even seemed intoxicated by it. The only thing that stayed Anakin's hand was his love for Padme, and his desperate need for Sidious to save her life. He intervened against Mace Windu, not out of love for Palpatine, but for Padme, and instantly felt remorse, if but for a short while. (I have to admit, after that is the point where I stop seeing the logic in Anakin's motives)

No, I believe that Anakin could only have had the dreams if Padme was going to die in childbirth anyway, without a change in the natural course of events. And Anakin's betrayal of the Jedi Order was not a natural course of events. It would not have happened without the visions he had, and the resulting fear and desperation. Therefore, it would appear that the dreams caused themselves to happen. To me, this makes as much sense as the Sun causing itself to shine (when we know that without an abundant supply of Hydrogen it would burn out).

Long story short, without the visions, and the resulting threat of Padme's death, and without Anakin's alleged need to resort to the dark side to save her, Anakin would not have turned. Had Anakin not turned, Padme would not have died. Had Padme not died, Anakin would not have had the visions. Had Anakin not had the visions...... Well you get the picture. It's an illogical cycle that has no reasonable beginning or end. This, in my opinion, is an impossible theory.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the visions were engineered by Sidious, who schemed to turn Anakin from the day he met him. It was his goal from day one. In my opinion, anyone strong enough with the force to conceal himself as a Sith, even in the presence of Yoda and other Jedi Masters, might also be strong enough with the force to implant these "visions" into Anakin's unconscious mind. Though there is no precedent for such a use of the force, this theory, to me, is much more logical, given Anakin's generally benevolent nature, which, left unaltered, would have taken him down a different path than the one he eventually chose.
it doesnt seem illogical to me. Anakins sees a vision of the future. He sees Padme dying, but doesnt realize it is in direct affect to his actions leading up to that point. He doesnt see that his actions to save her are the actions that cause her to die.

An example that comes to mind is how the end of Saw II plays out. If the detective (Donny Wahlberg) does nothing after "knowing" what the outcome of his son will be, as the killer asks, nobody would have died. Instead he goes off on a rescue mission and presumably dies himself.

So how can anyone possibly react to knowing the future, while realizing that it may come true through either action or inaction?
There is nothing you can do, its happened before in films that it is actually your actions that bring about the consequence foreseen/foretold, even if you act in the hope of hindering it.

A Little off topic but... Vader keep telling Luke it was his destiny to join the Sith, perhaps his inability to escape what appeared to him as his destiny that inspired this?
We all agree Yoda is the wisest Jedi, and he repeatedly warned Anakin/Luke about visions of the future. It is a gift to the Jedi but it is also to me, the most dangerous thing that they have always had to try to deal with. They obviously knew that actions based off of a vision could be the result of those actions. Anakins lack of patients, which by the way was what Qui-Gon was always stressing to Obi-Wan to use, was his down fall. Also, his love for Padme which ulitmately saved himself caused his fall to the dark side. His pasions got the best of him and that is why Jedi are forbiden to have attachments. He was long on the path of the dark side, probably when in Ep. 2 when he started to fall in love with Padme, then killing the sandpeople. All his actions started these events and his strong tie to the force alowed him to see into where he was headed, but it did not show him the whole truth of the reasons of the how.

The Sith/Jedi can read each others feelings and thoughts like a book. To me this isnt even a strech of how Sidious knew of Ankin's involvement with Padme. Sidious was looking for something in Anakin, where the Jedi did not. They probably never even thought Anakin was in love, plus with Sidious causeing the Jedi to have a diminished ablity to use the force it was all the easier for Anakin to concell from the Jedi.
I'm missing the connection involving the Jedis' awareness of Anakin's relationship with Padme. And I would add that Obi Wan was well aware that Anakin was smitten by her, even if he didn't realize the full depth of their relationship. There was a reason he visited Padme on more than one occasion when he was looking for Anakin; he knew it was a good place to look for him.

But my point remains that a vision cannot be self-fulfilling, at least not logically, and therefore, I still believe that Palpatine was feeding Anakin those visions somehow. If Anakin had not had the visions, he would not have made the choices that caused them to come true. If one is to see the future, how can they see a future that is not imminent based on the present? Wouldn't his visions be more likely to reflect the outcome of the choices he was making? Perhaps he would more logically have had visions of trying to explain his marriage and family to the Jedi Council when they eventually found out. Maybe he could have had visions about a confrontation between them and him when he was ejected from the Jedi Order. And maybe he might have turned to the dark side in anger as a result, but I cannot see any of this taking place until after Sidious had been killed and after Padme had survived the birth of the twins. Anakin was not so far along the path to the dark side that he would have turned when he did had it not been for the visions. He would have allowed Palpatine to be killed when he found out he was the Sith Lord, had it not been for the visions, maybe even attempt to do it himself. There is only one reason he intervened, and it was to save Padme. His fall from grace was caused by his reaction to the visions and they did not accurately reflect the future until he began to have them. This cannot and does not make sense logically, unless you can accept that the visions were engineered by Palpatine and implanted into Anakin's mind.

Consider it a variation of the Jedi Mind Trick, a utilization of the force. Consider this, and the fact that Palpatine schemed to turn Anakin from the moment he met him, and you will see that it is highly logical. In fact, of the two theories, it is the only one that's logical.

I maintain that Palpatine caused the dreams as part of his plan to turn Anakin. I further maintain that a vision cannot cause itself to come true, and that if the present leads to one future, a vision cannot spontaneously ocurr to foretell a different future as being imminent, thereby causing itself to come true when the natural course of events in the present and future would bring about a completely different destiny.

The dream would not have come true if Anakin had not had it in the first place. Therefore, the future it foretold was a fabrication, manufactured by intelligent design and with a purpose.
Gundar Jin Wrote:I'm missing the connection involving the Jedis' awareness of Anakin's relationship with Padme. And I would add that Obi Wan was well aware that Anakin was smitten by her, even if he didn't realize the full depth of their relationship. There was a reason he visited Padme on more than one occasion when he was looking for Anakin; he knew it was a good place to look for him.

Obi-Wan spent the most time with him and understood him better than anyone else on the Jedi council did. He also understood the significance of his friendship with Padme when he first met him than anyone else.

I also agree that the Jedi council had no clue that Anakin was in love because it was inconcievable to them due to their rigid jedit training.

I also do not agree that Palpatine/Sideous was forcing or creating the visions to Anakin.
Alright then folks, let's explore this theory a little, and see if maybe I can see where you are finding the logic in it.

Let's all consider what would have happened had Anakin not had the dreams. Would he have progressed normally as a Jedi? Would he have continued to struggle with authority? Would he have turned? If he would have turned, at what point would he have done so, and why? And what events leading up to that point would you cite as reasons for your opinion?

Given all of that, maybe somebody can explain how it is possible that Anakin could have turned in time to break Padme's heart and strip her of her will to live, so that she would die in childbirth, thereby causing the dreams to come true. I myself don't see it happening without the dreams ocurring in the first place, but hey! Maybe I'm missing something.

I don't think Anakin would have turned without the dreams, which were why he felt he needed the Siths' power, which is why he allowed Palpatine to live. Had Anakin not turned, Padme would have lived, and therefore, I say that the dreams were a false future, and not the true future. This also means they were not a prediction of the future, but a lie. A lie does not exist without someone to tell it. But I digress. I've already been through this.

What I want to know is if anyone can convince me that without the dreams Anakin would have turned more or less as he did with them. Because without that impending future, I cannot agree that Anakin could possibly have had dreams of it, unless they were created and implanted somehow (like by Palpatine, through the use of the force).
Anakin is a person who is impulsive and "hot tempered". Maybe because he was once a slave and now that he is "free" doesn't want ANYONE "ordering him around" or "controlling his destiny". When you ARE a slave, being ordered around & living the life others "decide" you should be living is SOP. And, the Jedi were not very "open" ablut EXACTLY what his "career path was "supposed to be".

SO, he MIGHT have "turned dark" without any help, or "implanting", if you were a patient person who didn't mind waiting. Pap didn't "strike" me as one of those, and if since he is a Sith lord, has access to all the dark "tricks"; why wait when you can "create a better future". (For YOURSELF anyway, too bad about the Jedi though!!)

SO, yes, he could have "sent" Anakin, "encouragment" to "change faster", using Padme as a weapon. And "made himself" available to Anakin, to "fix" the problem.

It is hard to say, without knowing the extent of "Dark Abilities", ask GL for more details!!

But, yes, based on the path Anakin was on, if the Jedi didn't intervene in a timely manner, there WOULD be a Vader, just not as soon, and Vader would have known EXACTLY where his "kids' were and we woudl have a very different story

Got to go- will type more details later
I think subconcously he was powerhungry
That is true, he even admitted he was not the jedi he should be, he wanted more, the dreams simply hastened his turn to the darkside, as when push came to shove (namely Palps facing his destruction at the hands of Mace he had to choose there and then, and he would not have without the dreams) The bottom line is that he was "too old to begin the training" just like the Green one said (although he was wrong about Luke on that score)
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